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Another Cracked Rudder Question

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iwillnotsubmit
1st Mate

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64 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 03:59:07

When I made a new rudder this past winter for my 1980, I used the dimensions found in the tech tips. There were some slight discrepancies in the dimensions when I began laying out a profile to cut out the plywood used for the core. I used my old rudder and took measurements of the boat in critical areas to work out the proper dimensions for my boat. The finished rudder looks and fits great. I will be launching her next Monday, FINALLY!!!!! I will let you know how the new rudder works.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 07:26:08

While you are at the boat, you might want to roughly simulate how much the tiller height increase affects the max angle the tiller can be raised by simply lifting your tiller to within 1 1/4" of the traveler. I guess you just need enough angle to get the tiller over someones knees.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 07/09/2012 : 20:55:55

I was swamped over the last couple of weeks... but here's a quick update:

I should be getting the rudder either on Tuesday or Wednesday at the latest. I'm super excited.

Here's the drawing of the mold that Finco Fabrications has (which is copy of one of our members from 89 model).

I'm little nervous about installing the pintles but I will take my time. Also should I cover the bottom with antifouling paint (such as VC-17). My old rudder seems to have layer of VC tar (or something similar)and then i still applied VC-17 every year.

Any advice and steps to take?

(I will take pics when the rudder arrives)

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 04:25:46

Having dealt with my rudder earlier this summer a few thoughts. The key factors in setting the pintles include (1) the distance between gudgeons (approx. 19" but probably boat dependent), (2) set back distance, i.e. allow enough distance between forward edge of the rudder and the skeg for the rudder to rotate freely (~ 5/8" between rudder and pintle), and (3) vertical placement of the pintles is a compromise between extending the rudder as deep as possible while still allowing the tiller to clear the transom/traveler bar. I also suggest (1) over-drill the pintle bolt holes, fill them with fiberglass, and then drill the appropriate sized bolt holes. This minimizes the potential risks of water intrusion into the foam core and of cracking the outer skin by over tightening the pintle bolts, and (2) add a metal bushing to protect your new rudder from the bolt used to attach the tiller.

Think it through and best to you. Hope you're on the water soon.

Edited by - glivs on 07/10/2012 04:28:05

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 20:52:49

Time for an update:
I finally picked up the rudder today! Before I get into photo shoot let me give you my first impressions.

Finco Fabrications are very responsive and will bend over backwords for you - But only till the sale closes. Couple things that I found frustrating.
1. It took few days to get the drawing from them - i didn't want to commit to purchasing until I'm absolutely sure that I can work with it (ok only 2 days... but with me wanting to order yesterday seemed like a lot longer)
2. After sale was closed they packaged it the next business day and requested shipping - perfect. But they emailed me a bill for rudder and shipping all together (shipping was about $119). I've sent them first request July 4th to separate the cost of the rudder and shipping so I don't have to pay taxes on shipping at customs. Everyday when i called and followed up with phone it was "tomorrow". Today I called again and when they answered the phone I was asked "You're still hang up on that receipt?" - my pressure went up a notch but I stayed cool. He was suppose to send it within an hour - entire day went by and nothing! That ticked me off. So I went to pick it up today and ended up paying taxes on both rudder and shipping. Anyways taxes on the shipping were only $16 so not a big deal - but it's the principle.

Maybe I'm too tough on customer service - but I'm always huge on it and it's just my personal observation.

Back to the rudder.
Over all look of the rudder: EXCELLENT - it looks like it's really well made. They even put in the bushing for the tiller pin (too small for my pin though - but i guess i can easily replace the pin.)
Packaging: EXCELLENT - this thing was so well packed I was amazed! There was couple dings on the rudder, but I can't see that happening during shipping. That package could have gone through hurricane and nothing would happen to the rudder. Those dings must of been from just being stored at their shop - they're tiny so I won't fuss about it at all.

Prior to opening the crate:

Crate opened and it was still wrapped with paper and foil - and it was really well braced inside (super solid):

Now photo shoot of my new rudder:

Pre-drilled hole for the tiller with bushing:

My tiller pin which is too big. So now that I get size smaller there will be some "wiggle" room on the tiller straps - is that ok???

Notches for pintles - unfortunatelly in wrong spot for me - at least I'm glad they didn't pre-drill.

Ding #1:

Ding #2:

Let me know whether downsizing the tiller pin is ok. I'm asking cuz right now it's perfect fit for the tiller straps. It might create minimal amount of wiggle room - but i don't think it will be significant enough.

ohh.. and let me know about paining bottom half - Should i paint it with antifouling? anything else?

Edited by - szymek on 07/10/2012 20:56:46

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 15:44:09

Your new tiller looks great - much nicer than my '89 original. No complaints on mine but it is not a show piece - Catalina did not put much QC into these. Curious as to what your new tiller weighs before adding the hardware. Tiller pin size should not pose an issue and yes I would paint antifouling on the lower half of the tiller. You are going to love your balanced rudder.

Edited by - glivs on 07/11/2012 15:45:05

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 07/11/2012 : 18:14:19

Hey glivs... Thanks for the comments. I don't have a scale at home, but before I get the rudder back on I will post the weight of it here on the thread.

Can anyone recommend whether I should paint it and with what? Should I just use antifouling such as vc-17 or add layer of VC-tar first??

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 07/13/2012 : 06:43:23

For anyone following this thread or for future reference:

I've asked finco what is best way to protect the rudder and here's the response I got.

"barrier coat systems are to keep the water out of polyester boats as they over years will have absorption issues. Our rudders are made using vynlester resin, which has much better moisture properties. You can barrier the rudder as it won’t hurt but simply applying bottom paint should be fine."

Tomorrow couple boats from our marina are going to Port Dalhousie for the weekend. Well i decided to put the rudder back on today, and i'll take it off after the weekend and I willy apply antifouling.

Edited by - on

LewieWallace
Deckhand

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USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 18:35:50

Wish I had read this post a week ago. My '89 SR/WK rudder snapped just above the lower pintle about half way between Little Sturgeon and Menominee. I was on a nice reach in 10-15 knots when the boat just rounded up. The break was a clean, straight break just like shown for the "repair". With my inboard diesel, there was not an option to "steer". It took about 2 hours to get a BoatUS tow out of Sturgeon Bay to get me back to harbor.

I've talked with Catalina Direct and RudderKraft and had almost decided to go with the RudderKraft "Blue Water" with the length cut down to match my current rudder to keep from bumping the bottom in my local sailing area. Can you shoot me the e-mail/phone number for Steve at Foss? Thanks.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/17/2012 : 19:44:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LewieWallace
 ...My '89 SR/WK rudder snapped just above the lower pintle...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Was that the original-equipment fiberglass balanced rudder?

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Katitude
Member

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2013 : 09:15:57

My rudder broke this weekend, while sailing in the SF Bay. Mine broke "between" the gudgeons, ABOVE the water line. Mild waves that day, made a huge "SNAP" sound. It appears to have rot, and there were obvious epoxy repairs made to the rudder when I bought the boat a few months ago. It looked "fine". I was totally unprepared for a rudder break, and the outboard motor couldn't provide the steering needed in the bay. I used the head sail, just slightly furled out, to provide some power and maybe helped with steering, not sure, and because the rudder broke between the gudgeons, both pieces were still attached but would swing back and forth, causing the boat to go the opposite direction. Decided leaving it in gave us some leverage on steering. Moral of the story, after reading all these posts, I would NEVER try to epoxy or repair a rudder if you sail anywhere other than a water hole with nothing to run into, and padded edges on a lake.. sarcasm.. We WERE those unsuspecting sailors that bought the boat with a repaired rudder that failed us in the San Francisco Bay. Now, any thoughts on making a rudder out of mahogany?? I never want to experience this situation again, and I plan to have a backup rudder too!

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2013 : 09:55:34

Kathi, there's not a thing wrong with fabricating a rudder from mahogany if you have the woodworking tools and skills to do it. In the old days, it was not at all uncommon for rudders to be made of mahogany. My friend's boat has a very old mahogany rudder, and it broke last year. After the boat was hoisted out of the water, he found that the wooden part of the rudder isn't what failed. The rudder was supported on a 1/2" stainless steel rod, and it was the steel rod that broke, due to it's exposure to salt water for 50 years. My friend had a new steel rod fabricated, attached it to the old mahogany rudder, and the old rudder is back in service.

I got tired of repairing the laminated tiller on my C25, and fabricated a solid mahogany tiller, and never had a problem with it again.

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Katitude
Member

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2013 : 12:13:56

Thanks Steve, There are so many posts on the forum regarding rudder failure, it's overwhelming. I understand that the rudders from Finco in California is the original company, that they opened a second company in Florida, but have now separated from them. I just spoke to the California company, and he stated that the mahogany would not be as strong as their foam rudder. Any thoughts?

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2013 : 13:46:55

If manufactured rudders are strong, why do so many of them delaminate and break? I'm no engineer, but reason and experience tells me that mahogany rudders, that have been used to circumnavigate the globe on old full keel sailboats with big, barn door rudders, must be fairly strong. Larry Pardey is accepted as one of the master craftsmen of the wooden-boat building world. He and his wife, Lin, built two strong, wooden boats and sailed twice around the world in them. The strength and performance of a wooden rudder will undoubtedly depend, to some extent, on the skill of the person who builds it, but I personally don't doubt that the material itself is up to the task.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2013 : 20:29:25

I had a friend build a mahogany rudder for my last boat - water intrusion killed the original. It is essential to keep the water out whether the rudder is wood or cored fiberglass. It's just a lot easier to discover and repair intrusion on a wood rudder. I suppose you could avoid all issues by hanging a few hundred pounds of bronze plate on the stern.

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Katitude
Member

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USA
31 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2013 : 03:58:15

Spoke to a wooden boat builder here at our Sailing club. He suggested Sitka Spruce. It's built in layers (strips) epoxied, the coated in fiberglass resin. He says the Spruce is stronger than Mahogany. I called MacBeath lumber in Berkeley and they said Sitka Spruce is commonly used in wooden masts. I assume that would be a very good choice. Any thoughts?

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dasreboot
Admiral

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804 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2013 : 04:48:02

according to the wood database, strengths are similar, with sitka spruce (http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/softwoods/sitka-spruce/)being slightly weaker.It does this, however with half the weight, so strength to weight is much higher. Mahogany (http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-identification/hardwoods/african-mahogany/) is much more rot resistant than sitka. If you can keep the water out this wont be a problem.

Edited by - dasreboot on 12/19/2013 04:50:18

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2013 : 17:00:58

Nobody wants to have their rudder break but all in all if that rudder was the original rudder to your 1980 Cat then I would say it held up fairly well for 33 years. If you bought a new balanced rudder I think it would outlive the time that you are going to keep the boat or the boat itself. The balanced rudder is a big improvement over the original.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 12/19/2013 : 21:47:37

One difference between the original and the balanced rudder introduced on the C-25 in about 1988 is that the original was cored with wood in the head where the pintles are attached, and solid glass below that. The common failure was a break at the lower pintle, where the bending force meets the immovable part, and the immovable part became rotten over the years from moisture entering at the tiller hole, pintle bolt holes, and the split between the two shells due to freezing moisture.

The balanced rudder is foam-cored throughout. Moisture could enter at the various holes, so it's advisable not to allow freezing. It's also recommended not to allow direct sunlight (with the rudder out of the water) to heat up the bottom paint on it, because it could swell the foam. But the foam will not rot.

If I built a wood rudder, I would probably try not to leave it in the water for extended periods when not using the boat. I would also coat it with penetrating epoxy, followed by standard epoxy, followed by spar varnish (the latter for UV protection for the epoxy). That combination would let me see any rot that might develop. I'd probably use mahogany or ipe ("eepay"), and wouldn't worry about the weight. (My foam-cored balanced rudder wanted to float off the gudgeons.) Ipe, incidentally, sinks in water, and is used for commercial and municipal boardwalks, for example. It eats normal woodworking tools, including saws, drill bits, etc., a little like concrete does.

Nothing is 100% fool-proof, and nothing lasts forever (except maybe fiberglass hulls).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/19/2013 21:54:39

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 12/20/2013 : 04:49:55

In addition to what has been said, I think another contributing factor to rudder failure is trailer-launching the boat from a roller-type trailer, with the rudder in place. The boat can slide off that type of trailer quickly, and if the rudder is in place, and the tiller isn't lashed in the center, the rudder will turn sideways, and the force on it can be enormous. Eventually, I made a practice of launching it with the rudder in the cockpit, and installed it after the boat was in the water.

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glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2013 : 08:02:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 In addition to what has been said, I think another contributing factor to rudder failure is trailer-launching the boat from a roller-type trailer, with the rudder in place. The boat can slide off that type of trailer quickly, and if the rudder is in place, and the tiller isn't lashed in the center, the rudder will turn sideways, and the force on it can be enormous. Eventually, I made a practice of launching it with the rudder in the cockpit, and installed it after the boat was in the water.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK this is why our forum rocks. I never thought about the effect on the rudder during launch. Thank you Steve for sharing that

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/20/2013 : 08:37:26

When I was a trailer sailor, I launched with the beaching rudder in the up position so as to avoid possibly hitting the bottom when backing up. With a fixed rudder, I'd be inclined to remove it prior to launch and retrieval. Cheap insurance and peace of mind.

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