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Foil broke. Yep I use a foil

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ColinR
1st Mate

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Canada
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Initially Posted - 06/11/2012 : 14:58:08

Time for a new one because I'm not going through another summer with just a main.

Did some research and I found that regardless if I have a TR or SR boat I should be getting the 1205-30 foil indicated in the picture below

I am correct to assume that is the ideal size? The dealer shows that they only have the 36' available, but I understand that foils can be trimmed to fit. Ideally I would like the 30 though because there would be less trimming involved (or none at all?) and cheaper as well.

I am basing my estimate on the data shown in the link below for forestay length.

http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=566

Thank you.

Oh yea, anyone here use a foil themselves? I get this feeling it's kind of archaic still to use, or common with race prepped boats.

Link to the foil page I am referring to.

http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10119|10506& product=10737622& code=740507500114
^ The hyperlink isn't working. You'll have to copy and paste the whole link.

1981 Catalina 25
Midland, Ontario

Edited by - ColinR on 06/11/2012 15:04:22

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 15:25:39

Fixed the link for you: [url="http://www.pridemarine.com/index.cfm?category=10007|10119|10506&product=10737622&code=740507500114"]1205 foil[/url]

Don't have a furler, so not much help otherwise.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 16:46:58

Everyone who I know with a foil is a racer. Can't ghelp much beyond that, but I know a guy who got his from Rigging Shoppe in North Toronto. They have been very helpful with my recent rigging questions.

You might want to give them a shout. Do me a favour and mention the forum when you call.

Between you, me and Szymek we could start an All-Ontario Fleet!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 16:54:15

I think Derek Crawford uses a Tuff Luff. He'll probably chime in when he sees this thread.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 16:57:15

How is a foil archaic? If you race, it helps. Maybe not a lot, but every bit counts. And sail changes are much faster. Why are you going with the Tuff Luff? Everyone used to go with Tuff Luff, but now it seems more and more are switching to the Harken Carbo Foil. Maybe just for looks though.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 06/11/2012 17:53:54

OJ
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Response Posted - 06/11/2012 : 18:49:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ColinR
 
I would like the 30 though because there would be less trimming involved (or none at all? . . . )
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Colin - we installed a new foil last year and I believe the final measurement came in at 31'7" - for a tall rig.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 08:37:34

I've had a Tuff-Luff for the last 20 years!It's a definite advantage especially if you are a racer. (A rigger once told me that it was worth 3 secs a mile).
I would buy the 34' length - better too much than too little.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 10:19:01

I'm confused. Isn't a foil a required part of a furler? What does the headsail wrap around if it isn't a foil?

I almost joined the roller furling club last night. Fisheries Supply in Seattle has a Harken Unit 00 roller furling setup on closeout for $550ish, but it is for a maximum 29' headstay, just a little too short for my C-25 tall. Maybe it'll fit a standard? I was doing a little research this morning to see if I could buy the 00AL foils for the 00 furler, but it seems like I'll end up spending about the same amount as just buying a 00Al to begin with.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 12:57:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 I'm confused. Isn't a foil a required part of a furler? What does the headsail wrap around if it isn't a foil?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Alex, jib furlers have foils, but not all foils come with furlers.

A foil is just a different way, other than hanks, to attach a sail to the forestay. You can use a foil with a furler, such as you see on many cruising boats, or you can use a foil without a furler, as is done on many racing boats. Many pure racers raise their sails on a foil, but they don't have a furler, and can't roll up their sails around the forestay. I crew on one boat like that, and we have to fold and bag every headsail that we use after every race. I crew on another racing boat, and he has a furler with a foil, and the foil works exactly the same as on the other boat. He can raise his racing jib on the foil, but he can't roll it up. He has to fold and bag his racing jib after every race. However, when he isn't racing, he can attach his dacron cruising genoa to the foil, and roll it up on the furler, if he wishes. Functionally, there isn't much difference between a racing foil and a foil on a furler, and a racing sail can be run up on either type of foil, if the boat is rigged to do so.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:03:36

Is the goal of a foil without a furler to give a cleaner entry to the leading edge of the sail? Is the foil permanently attached to the headstay, but the normal halyard is used to raise the jib?

Thanks for the education.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:25:56

I used to race on a J-92 quite a while ago. It was rigged with a dual foil, so you could hoist one sail while you were taking down the other (assuming you had the crew available). It wasn't a furler either. We spent time after each race folding the various jibs we'd used during the race. We'd do an expeditious fold after each sail change expecting to use that sail again so it'd feed easily up through the hatch, but we'd shake them all out after the race and do a nice fold. The owner wasn't afraid to spend a lot of cash on his sails, and he expected them to be well taken care of.

Fortunately he always served grog on the way back to port after a race (and made a point of making and serving it to us himself), so it was usually a jovial task.

I miss racing with that guy.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 06/12/2012 : 13:28:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Is the goal of a foil without a furler to give a cleaner entry to the leading edge of the sail? Is the foil permanently attached to the headstay, but the normal halyard is used to raise the jib?

Thanks for the education.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You're exactly right. However, one of the best small boat (Cal 25) sailors I know hanks on his racing sails, as I did with my C25, and maybe it's just because I raced with hanked-on sails for so many years, but I have always believed I could see sail shape more accurately with hanked-on sails. A foil tends to smooth out the luff of the sail, and makes it harder, for me at least, to know whether I have the exact amount of tension on the halliard that I want for the windspeed. My point is that, if I was a racer with limited funds (which I am, by the way), there are lots of things I would spend my money on before I would opt for a foil. For example, I would much rather have a good racing mainsail and/or hanked-on racing jib than a foil.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 06/12/2012 13:38:30

ColinR
1st Mate

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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/18/2012 : 19:56:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Everyone who I know with a foil is a racer. Can't ghelp much beyond that, but I know a guy who got his from Rigging Shoppe in North Toronto. They have been very helpful with my recent rigging questions.

You might want to give them a shout. Do me a favour and mention the forum when you call.

Between you, me and Szymek we could start an All-Ontario Fleet!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the tip on the rigging shoppe. I will talk with them tomorrow.

Where do you sail out of? We’re at Wye Marsh in Midland.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 How is a foil archaic? If you race, it helps. Maybe not a lot, but every bit counts. And sail changes are much faster. Why are you going with the Tuff Luff? Everyone used to go with Tuff Luff, but now it seems more and more are switching to the Harken Carbo Foil. Maybe just for looks though.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Price mainly, and the idea that we might upgrade to a furler in the future and we would prefer not to invest money into a foil system that might eventually get swapped out.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ColinR
 
I would like the 30 though because there would be less trimming involved (or none at all? . . . )
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hi Colin - we installed a new foil last year and I believe the final measurement came in at 31'7" - for a tall rig.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the input. So it would appear I need the 1205-36 according to your measurements. I am guessing “Extrusion” in the spec sheet means total length for the foil itself, yes?

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 I've had a Tuff-Luff for the last 20 years!It's a definite advantage especially if you are a racer. (A rigger once told me that it was worth 3 secs a mile).
I would buy the 34' length - better too much than too little.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

To be honest, we don’t really race the boat…that is what it was set up for when we bought it. We just kind of stuck with it since a furler was kind of a large investment at the time.

I am wondering about the contradiction from your post and the one above. You suggest the 34 length, which would be the 1205-30 foil, but the person above your post is saying to go with the 1205-36, or am I not interpreting your post wrong?
-------------------------------------

If I already use a foil, (which means my sails have luff tape) how difficult would it be to switch to a furler like an FF4/BB for example. Do the sails have to be modified in anyway? If it’s painless (and reasonable cost wise) then we might just forego the foil and switch to the rolling furler completely. My dad might be single handing more often and the convenience of a rolling furler instead of just a foil would be advantageous.

Thanks all!

Edited by - ColinR on 06/18/2012 19:59:41

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 12:43:22

Luff tapes have size numbers. The FF6 (FF4 is too small) uses a #6 foil tape. Your chart above would lead one to assume you have #5 on your sail. Kaching

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/19/2012 : 18:11:01

I have a Harkin Mark IV furler and it has dual slots in the foil. You can also take the drum off to use just the foil if you so choose.

Frankly, I didn't see any change in speed on my boat when I went from hank-ons to the furler but I do get better sail shape without as much effort.

Edited by - on

NautiC25
Admiral

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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 04:38:34

It's trade offs. A furler has a better shape than hank-ons on the luff side. But a hank on sits lower on the deck because of the drum, doesn't have UV strips on the leech and foot, and has generally more sail. A racing foil/sail setup gets the best of both.

Edited by - NautiC25 on 06/20/2012 04:42:16

keeldad
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 04:53:14

Speaking of roller furling, has anybody had a problem with a CDI roller furler halyard coming off the sheave and jamming? I finally splashed the Emery C yesterday and while bending on the jib, the halyard jumped off the sheave and jammed. Fortunately I was able to reach up and disconnect the sail. The boat yard gave me a ride up to the top of the mast on their crane and I was able to put the halyard back on the sheave but it was too late in the evening to try and raise the jib again. I'm going to try tomorrow but I suspect the same thing might happen. Any suggestions? BTW, I have some great pictures the Emery C from the top of the mast but I'm not too good at internet photo sharing yet. When I get a chance to figure it out, I'll post them.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 07:53:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ColinR
If I already use a foil, (which means my sails have luff tape) how difficult would it be to switch to a furler like an FF4/BB for example. Do the sails have to be modified in anyway?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You would need some way to keep the sail protected from UV when it was furled. The normal way is a strip of sunbrella sewn onto the leech and foot of the sail, and your sail probably doesn't have that. The other way is a sock that zips up around the whole furled jib. Those are in the $300ish price range, but have the advantage of keeping your sail a bit lighter.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/20/2012 : 20:22:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by NautiC25
 It's trade offs. A furler has a better shape than hank-ons on the luff side. But a hank on sits lower on the deck because of the drum, doesn't have UV strips on the leech and foot, and has generally more sail. A racing foil/sail setup gets the best of both.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't know about that, my 150 is pretty much a deck sweeper but it does have a UV strip.

On my sail I just don't think the UV strip makes that much difference compared to my 150 hank-on but I'm not racing either.

Edited by - on

ColinR
1st Mate

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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/23/2012 : 07:49:16

I'll fill you guys in on what we decided soon, but instead of creating a new thread, I sifted through the archive section and found that when removing the forestay, the forward lowers should hold the mast up, but for extra security, the jib halyard should be fastened to a cleat at the bow. This is correct, right?

Also, any special tools that I need, or just bring it all?

Thanks

Edited by - ColinR on 06/23/2012 07:51:05

GaryB
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Response Posted - 06/23/2012 : 09:30:19

Yes, always use a safety line when loosening or removing anything that holds the mast up.

I've learned (most of the time) to bring everything I can think of when working on anything. Everytime I don't bring everything I end up needing something I didn't bring. Of course the reverse happens if I bring everything.

Edited by - GaryB on 06/23/2012 09:31:05

ColinR
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 12:34:07

Hello again,

The question about the forestay was in regards to taking it down and getting it replaced with a new one because we decided to make the move to the FF4 furler from the rigging shoppe. Our original plan was to use the crane at the marina with a bosuns chair attached to it to pull off the forestay. When we got to the crane they informed us that policy had changed and that we can no longer hoist people with the crane. Since my dad didn't want to deal with bringing the mast down we have decided to update the forestay and perhaps the rest of the rigging at the end of the sailing season.

I am going to install the furler myself with the mast up. I have been reading through the old forum posts regarding the FF4 install and I learned a few things.

1. The foil head must ride the forestay shank to avoid wear on the wire.
2. Orient the furling drum to the side of the boat with the furling line. This is done by aligning the shackle at the bottom of the drum.
Since the spinnaker pole is attached on the port side, we will have to run the line on the starboard, despite the fact that the hinges for the anchor closet are on the port side.
3. Safety wire the lower turnbuckle, so that the drum does not spin it loose.
4. CDI recommends a toggle at the stemhead.
I see that we have a toggle at the bottom of the forestay, indicated by the picture below, but since I cannot recall if there is a toggle at the stemhead, I will have to be hoisted up in a bosuns chair to confirm this.

5. There should be 3 inches of clearance from the furler cap and the mast

I downloaded the manual for the FF4 and they say that I should measure the forestay length from pin to pin. I am assuming the pin is the clevis pin that can be seen in the picture above.

Once I get this measurement I should subtract 17 inches from that measurement and then cut the luff (foil right?). The extrusion will probably be longer than my pin to pin measurement, so what I should do is cut the luff to the pin to pin measurement, and then cut again subtracting 17 inches? By following this, will I have the perfect luff measurement that will cover the swage fitting at the top of the forestay?

Another question is how to get the correct luff/foil measurement, so that the foil head is covering the swage fitting at the top, when the mast is up? My only option I see is to be hoisted in a bosuns chair while I hold a measuring tape, and then have someone at the bottom holding the tape at the pin. This will obviously have to be done regardless to get the pin to pin length, as I have a tall rig, but I don't trust the 31'10" measurement for the forestay, because the manual says catalina measured shrouds and stays from the eye(pin) to the end of the threads, whereas they measured halyards from eye to eye.

So as you can see my biggest worry is getting the cuts right so the foil isn't on the forestay wire, but resting on the swage where it should be, when everything is in place.

I'll be doing the install on Sunday.

Thank you.

Edited by - ColinR on 06/29/2012 12:35:50

Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 06/29/2012 : 13:00:16

I think most people have had to add the toggle at the top of the forestay. I installed my furler and held off installing the toggle until the next time I lowered the mast. There was no damage to my swaged fitting. If the extrusion is cut to allow it to cover the swaged fitting the chances of it being stressed due to flexing of the forestay is minimized. I still have the piece of extrusion I cut off mine so I can measure that for you tonight and post it's length. Mine does cover the swaged fitting at the top. By the way, to push the extrusion up the forestay you have to run something through the extrusion and connect it to the bottom of the forestay. That way you can pull the forestay tight and create enough stiffness to slide the extrusion up. I used a steel fish tape wired to the cotter pin hole in the bottom swaged fitting. Once the extrusion is pushed all the way to the top you can clamp some vice grips on the top of the lower swage to keep the forestay from sliding back down while you attach the turnbuckle.

Edited by - Sloop Smitten on 06/29/2012 13:02:16

ColinR
1st Mate

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Canada
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Response Posted - 06/30/2012 : 10:44:30

Thanks for the offer to measure the extrusion, but did it come from a tall rig?

Edited by - on

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