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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 250 Specific Forum

135% genoa too much for newbie?

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/13/2003 : 15:54:45

Well, I ordered my (first) C250WK yesterday, and my dealer suggested I stick with the 110% genoa instead of the 135% that I wanted. My experience is with Hobie Cats, and he thought the 135% would be a little overpowering for a beginner, and suggested I start off with the smaller genoa, then "graduate" to the 135% when I get more experience.

Of course, that would be fine except for the $$ aspect. The 135% is $315 if I order it now, versus $7-800 down the road.

I'm leaning towards the 135% now and furling it when things get hairy.

BTW, I live in Los Angeles and it will see ocean sailing only.

Comments?



Edited by - Al on 01/16/2003 12:12:24

Edited by - Al on 01/16/2003 15:11:12

Edited by - on

n/a
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125 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 16:47:43

Hey Al....forget everything you know from Hobie, yes you got wind, water and a tiller, thats about it. I've had my c250 and from monitering this forum for 4 years. Almost no one wants the 135. I've seen dozens of them for sale here as guys try to unlaod them, The boat was not built or is balanced for that sail. As Arlyn is wont to repeat...on a C-25 the jib is the power sail...On the c250 it's the mainsail. Wait for other responses, but i'll bet a crispy kreme that most if not all of the guys will say in a resounding unison " stay away from the 135".

Gclarke C250WB

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 17:33:45

Al

I have had my c25wk with 135% roller furling for 3 years now. I do sail in a lake, but I use my jib furled out all the way 85% of the time.

I would have to disagree with Gclarke, get the 135% w/ roller furling. If you don't use it now that's fine, but you will have it if you ever do want to use it.

I'm sure you will get a bunch of opinions on this matter. Keep in mind the c250wb & the c250wk are different boats under sail. I have never sailed a water ballast, but listening to the people that have them leads me to believe the water ballast is more tender than the wing.

Until just recently the biggest head sail you could put on the c250wb was a 110%. The water ballast boats did not have an option of the 135%.

Go with the 135%. On the light air days you will be glad you did.

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - Bryan Beamer on 01/13/2003 18:46:06

Edited by - on

jguyot
1st Mate

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USA
97 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 17:56:13

Congradulations Al!!
I also own a 250WK & I agree with Bryan. I also have the 135% and would not want to have just a 110%. 85-90% of the time I have it out full and when it gets a little bit too much.....I just "Roll it In". Unless your winds are 15-20 or more mph all the time..... You'll be glad you went with the 135%, especially on the "Light Air" days.

P.S. Gary, Please send that "Kripsy Kreme" 'Next Day Air'......I like them still warm and we don't have any up here in Maine!! <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_approve.gif border=0 align=middle>

Jerry Guyot
250WK #586
"Sail La Vie"

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 20:02:52

Al, its a tough call. My answer would be it depends on whether you invest in a light air sail. The c250 does great on the 110 in winds 8 knots and above but needs more headsail below that. It's 8 knots and below that a light air sail does a better job than a heavy canvas jib.

The $315 will buy half of a 155% drifter from Ulman Sails in Ventura, Ca. That would get you a much better light air sail than the 135 and allow you to sport some color and have some fun. Or you could run a cruising chute.

I agree with Gary, you don't want to own both a 110 and a 135.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

lhooks
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 01/13/2003 : 21:25:34

You definitely want the 135 for a WK. The WB is different
but I would still want more sail than the 110. If racing
is important to you, then there will be days (heavy air, 12+) that you would be better off with the 110 because you get better
sail shape than the partially furled 135. But it is a pain
to change headsails and only a racer would bother.

If you are new to larger boats you can keep the 135 furled
until you feel more confident. Also the 135 will give you
more sail for reaching and running. But if you do want
to race you will also want a spinaker or drifter.

Leonard Hooks 250WK
Waco, TX

Edited by - on

cathluk
Admiral

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USA
513 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 08:08:21

We have a WK w/ a 110 & we sail on the Chesapeake Bay. I agree that there are times in the summer that I would prefer more sail; however, we plan to accomplish that by getting a drifter. I don't think I would want a 135 because your headsail will quickly loose shape when you furl it. When its really blowing out & we've got 1 or 2 feefs in our mainsail, we have our headsail furled to half & its got really lousy shape. Its VERY important on the C250 to keep it balanced. I don't know what the wind is like in LA, but I imagine ocean sailing can only get MORE "exciting" than the Chesapeake Bay. If you sailed on a quiet lake my opinion would probably be different.

Enjoy your new boat!

Cathy
"Blown Away"
'97 C250WK #253

Edited by - on

jfesi
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2003 : 20:57:33

We have a 250WK and sail in the ocean most of the time. I had intended to get a 135% genoa, but decided on the light air drifter instead. I have been very happy with my decision. The light air sail is better on those hot sluggish days in summer, and the 110 is easier to roll up when the wind tops 25 knots.

Alan Therrien
"Moonpenny" 250WWK #418

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Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 15:14:29

Arlyn, I assume your 155% drifter is in addition to the 110% jib, not in place of it. If that's the case, it supports passing on the 135% now, and getting a 155% (or whatever...) later. Even if it costs more later, I end up with two sails, instead of one.

BTW, are there situations where you would run the 110% and the 155% at the same time?

thanx...al

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 19:13:01

Yes, the drifter is in addition to the 110.

You could run both... with a pole on the 110. I'm not sure if you tried to furl the jib with the tack line tight on the drifter that the upper area of the cdi might want to foul a bit... but with slight precautions...it should work.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

lhooks
Deckhand

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USA
19 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 22:30:34

Being new to the 250, I must ask those that
are more knowledgeable of Catalina's intent:

Is the 250 a main drive boat?

Compared to the Hunter 260, which has almost
60 more square feet of sail area, the 250 would
seem to be more traditional to the old SORC
design of headsail driven boats, or at least
in between. Hunter touts their boats as
main driven and promotes the concept. Hunter
also offers only a 110. No larger headsail is
available.

Since Catalina does offer the 135, doesn't that
suggest they know you may need the 135 to compete
with the sail area offered by Hunter?

After all, the Hunter have 20% more sail area as
standard equipped.

Two comments in addition to the above question:

The sailing differences between a wing keel
and a water ballast would also suggest the WK boat
could handle a 135.

As for sail shape, naturally you will lose effectiveness
with a partially furled headsail but actually
you lose power and drive which is less of an issue
unless you are racing.

Leonard Hooks 250WK
Waco, TX

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 00:04:55

Leonard,

The c250 was designed to capture market share of Roger MacGregor's success with water ballast. The first 240 or so hulls produced were center boarders. But, initial handling problems of almost all the water ballast boats left them touted as very tender.

Actually what was happening was that one of the design parameters for interior ballast is an increased righting arm yielded by square bilges on a beamy hull. This hull form yielded excessive weather helm and almost all of these boats had rounding up problems that caught designers with inadequate rudder lift to hold control.

With expected sales sagging, Catalina added a wing keel offering for the 250 thinking it would solve the tender issue and bolster c250 sales. And it did. They were quite confident that the wing on a hull designed for interior ballast would be quite rigid and optimistically offered the c250 wing in both a tall rig and a 150 genoa option.

But, they were caught unaware again, as the hull simply wouldn't accept much heeling without rounding up problems. They dropped the tall rig and discontinued offering the 150 headsail.

Prior to this however, they had released a 2nd generation rudder that had the lift to keep control but its size induced a great amount of torque to the tiller as the rudder was not balanced.

Finally, they set it better with the 3rd generation rudder which had both lift and balance.

We are left however with a boat that once it heels beyond 20 degrees is quite sensitive about balance. Either the center of lateral resistance moves forward or the center of effort slides aft or both resulting in increasing weather helm. So, she likes to be sailed pretty flat. Catalina started adding a second reef and most of us with earlier boats installed a deep 2nd reef.

Center boarders learned quite quickly that we could fairly easily balance the helm by raking the center board aft thus moving the CLR aft. I also had a beaching rudder which was easy to modify and rake the rudder forward and simulate a balanced rudder and that cured the helm torque issues and between that and keeping the boat balanced, the beast was tamed.

Yes, the main is the strong engine on the c250 with its full battens and large roach.

When comparing the wing to the center board, the wing has more righting arm but doesn't enjoy the easy boat balancing ability of the center board ... The wing is also lighter, and therefore has a bit higher water line and thus slightly more freeboard.

As to racing, its guessed that the lighter wing will outperform the water ballast off wind but yield to it to weather. We just haven't had enough racing reports between the two to know what will happen on a closed course. The c250 can knock the socks of the older C25 in light air but succumb in heavy air.

From experience with Mark Melchoir on the Gulf outside of Pensacola, I flew my 155 drifter in conditions of its upper limits of 8 knots and had no advantage over his 110 on a beam reach. My extra power was wasted in heeling. If the wind had been 5 or less, I suspect there would be an advantage. I've scratched 2.5 knots out of the drifter in air barely able to hold a shape.

Another time in moderate winds, I went to weather against a J24. He yielded me about 200 yards head start and remained 50 yards back after three miles and several tacks up wind. And he with a deck sweeping 150 and me with 110. Don't ask what happened when we turned off wind.... And, if the wind had been strong, he would have eaten my lunch just as a C25 would. The c250 suffers a good bit of leeway in a breeze and requires reduction of sail early.

Carry'd away again...Hope this perspective helps...

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Al
Captain

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USA
269 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 19:01:50

...and the survey says:

3-get the 135%
3-don't get the 135%
1-"Al, it's a tough call..."<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

So it looks like my dealer is the tie breaker, and he says to stay with the 110%.

thanks to everyone for their input on this (the first of several questions you'll be seeing from me!).....al

Edited by - on

Rick Evans
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 18:55:17

I don't think you'll regret your decision to go with the 110. I've got a a 250 WK and the 110. In winds under 6 knots, I'd give anything for a bigger jib. But nobody's going to go fast in those winds anyway. In winds 8 knots and above, the 110 is just fine. And, at 15 knots and above, the 110 may be more than you want. Given the fact you're ocean sailing, you're going to get some good breezes. I think you'll find that 110 will make you happy.

Rick
Much Bigger

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2003 : 23:50:06

Al, get the 135, if you are unhappy then replacing it with a 110 will be cheaper than replacing a 110 with a 135, and if you decide to race the 135 will make a difference in light winds, in strong winds it will not matter if it rolled up to 90%, you will have plenty of power anyway./..I have a 130 and would like to have your 135!,
Steve Steakley

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