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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/06/2012 : 07:45:55

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/06/yacht-capsizes-in-long-island-sound-oyster-bay-killed-3-coast-guard-nassau-county_n_1653611.html

27 people on a 34' boat. 3 children dead. Sad.

[url="http://newimages.yachtworld.com/resize/1/22/40/4002240_20120620185344_1_LARGE.jpg?f=/1/22/40/4002240_20120620185344_1_LARGE.jpg&w=600&h=450&t=1340250009000"]This [/url]isn't the boat but it's the model. Where do you fit 27 people? Bet there weren't 27 PFDs aboard. The captain and/or owner should be charged, at the very least, with child endangering if not negligent homicide.

John Russell
1999 C250 SR/WK #410
Bay Village, Ohio
Sailing Lake Erie
Don't Postpone Joy!

Edited by - John Russell on 07/06/2012 08:05:33

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 08:27:43

that boat looks like it needs a keel already, much less with it overloaded. Incredible...

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 08:35:10

God....27 people on that boat....incredible.

2 bolts of lightning? Doubt it. Panic response to come up with an excuse quickly. Easily verified or dismissed.

Boat wake? Sure...with that sort of gross overloading even a small wake would dangerously rock that boat.

That boat is about the average dive boat we run in Cozumel....or I've been on in other locales. 17 people would not be terribly unusual, but is considered "packed" and crowded....most operations try to limit a trip to 13.

17 - 1 captain, 2 Divemasters, 14 divers (7 each side)

13 - 1 captain, 2 Divemasters, 10 divers (5 each side)

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 08:37:39

When I first heard this story - 24 people in the water - I could not believe that they were all on one vessel. I get uncomfortable with 4 adults on board...I simply can't imagine where you would put 27 people on that boat!

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 09:27:56

Manslaughter at least. The captain of this boat needs to be prosecuted, found guilty, fined, and sent to prison. Boaters need to see that there are serious consequences for this level of dangerous stupidity.

Edited by - on

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 09:50:58

I'm spoiled.. I normally like to use these to dive off of..

http://www.pcdivecenter.com/theboats.htm

Sweet rides...

the big one would be for 27 people at 68 feet long.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 10:19:13

Nice boats....run out to the Mighty O?

Edited by - Joe Diver on 07/06/2012 10:20:18

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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3476 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 10:44:12

<< run out to the Mighty O? >>

Naw.. they are out of Panama City Beach and generally run out no more that 8-12 miles or so.. some long trips at about 20 miles. The longest run they might be running to is the Empire Mica.

Coupla Divers down there are legend - Mike Gomez and others have built an operation that is just really sweet.

Can't tell you nice it is barreling out of the channel at 7am with LA woman on the speakers.. the Captn is relaxed...

O is out of Pepsi Cola ( Pensacola )or Mobile, and I'm not familiar with that area.

Oh O.... sorry about the Hyjack.. I'll try to behave next time...

Umm What kind of boat was it that went down? ( redirect )

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 12:10:14

[url="http://www.soundingsonline.com/dispatches/288648-video-holiday-horror"]Another report[/url].

We saw the fireworks they were watching--from the CT shore while ours were going on. Terrible to hear this happened virtually in front of our eyes (about 8 miles away).

With that many people, it's likely a bunch were up on that flybridge, making the boat even that much less stable. Pure negligence.

A C-25 with something like 14 people capsized and sank at night in no wind on Lake Dillon, Colorado a number of years back (10-15?). Boats this size (20'+) have no specified limits--common sense is assumed. (The "safety experts" were mistaken.) My arbitrary limit on Sarge is 10 for river cruises, fewer based on conditions in the big water. And as you can see, I don't have a flybridge.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/06/2012 12:23:07

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 13:03:47

From the article Dave posted:
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Balasso is also quoted in a Fox News report: “A friend of mine was in my boat and shined a spotlight on them because their boat was getting close to us. Then we saw them take a sharp left and it flipped.”<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Was that the "flash of lightning" the Captain reported seeing? I'll bet the Coasties woould like to talk with that "friend".
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Nassau Police Deputy Inspector Kenneth Lack said some but not all of the people on board were wearing life jackets, according to Newsday.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I was wondering earlier today if those children that were belowdecks were wearing them. Precisely the wrong place for them.

Edited by - John Russell on 07/06/2012 13:06:39

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4021 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 16:28:13

Ok so on the news tonight Silverton recommends 10 so Dave maybe you should lower your number? This so called Captain just might get away from the overloading charges as there isn't a capacity number for boats above 20ft and Silverton only puts a capacity plate on the flybridge, Heck I could very well see him sue Silverton for not having a capacity plack visibly placed on the boat. I'm not trying to justify this guys stupidity but a good lawyer could twist this point around.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 19:32:33

First, it'd be hard to sue Silverton for not doing what they're supposed to do when they're not required to do it. Federal requirements are up to 20'--if you want more federal regulation, go for it. I'm not entirely against that... except that as boats get bigger, they get more different--ballasted keels, inboard engines down in the hull, flybridges up in the air,... Where do you start?

As for my 10 passenger limit, that's for trips around the Mystic River, which I've done several times with 8-10, and my boat is very stable with that load. I have not ventured onto Fishers Island Sound with more than eight, all of whom are in my aft cockpit and lower helm area--I don't have a flybridge and don't let people climb on my cabintop or even sit on the foredeck when under way at any speed.

Anyway, 8-10 on my 27' is one thing, 27 on that 34 with an elevated flybridge is quite another. Hopefully, some lessons have been learned--the hard, sad way.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 20:16:31

I'm going for locking up both the owner and the operator. Hang em! This is akin to the dumbass with the MacGreggor 26 with 10 people aboard that capsized in San Diego. People need to understand that they are responsible for the safe operation of their vessel and that there are consequences for being negligent.

If you took your mini van and put 8 inside and two on the roof and the ones on the roof fell off and died, would the operator be responsible?

In my opinion, the only possible defense, which would be shallow, is that the steering cable broke while underway causing the sudden course change. I agree that the boater who flashed the vessel may have had something to do with this, but that would indicate that the Silverton was traveling at speed and the boater who flashed him was concerned about the Silverton's heading. The operator turned the Silverton sharply and I'll bet she went down Port side stern first.

The passengers who boarded that vessel did so under the assumption that the owner and the operator were capable and that the vessel is capable of the task.

The Coasties recently revised the "Average Weight" for passengers to 185 lbs from the 150 lbs that it was. 27 people is 5000 lbs! So, cruising along, sharp turn to port throws the movable ballast (people) to the port side of the boat, and that was all she wrote.

What really pisses me off is that the owner and the skipper came from somewhere. The boat had to be sluggish and feel like driving a big old caddy with a very loose front end. The stern would have "squatted" and the wake would be larger than normal. Any wave action would have caused it to rock to and fro. There was no wind. 10-15 mph was reported.

This was so preventable. Basic physics. But you need a license to get married, fly an airplane, practice medicine, cut hair, drive a car or a motorcycle, but any damn fool with a checkbook can go out and buy a boat.

sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 20:29:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 First, it'd be hard to sue Silverton for not doing what they're supposed to do when they're not required to do it. Federal requirements are up to 20'--if you want more federal regulation, go for it. I'm not entirely against that... except that as boats get bigger, they get more different--ballasted keels, inboard engines down in the hull, flybridges up in the air,... Where do you start?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which is why the OUPV limits the operator to six passengers. If you want to carry more, the vessel must be inspected. Then the calculators come out and stability tests are conducted. Do they publish righting movement information for pleasure stinkpots? I suspect that just like they do for cars, they will move to labeling capacity numbers which would include the total safe amount of cargo that can be safely carried. The data can be obtained. If the Coasties can determine if a vessel is safe under mandated licenses, then pleasure craft can be rated similarly.

sten

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 07/06/2012 : 20:47:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 First, it'd be hard to sue Silverton for not doing what they're supposed to do when they're not required to do it. Federal requirements are up to 20'--if you want more federal regulation, go for it. I'm not entirely against that... except that as boats get bigger, they get more different--ballasted keels, inboard engines down in the hull, flybridges up in the air,... Where do you start?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which is why the OUPV limits the operator to six passengers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's six paying passengers.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/07/2012 : 06:03:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 First, it'd be hard to sue Silverton for not doing what they're supposed to do when they're not required to do it. Federal requirements are up to 20'--if you want more federal regulation, go for it. I'm not entirely against that... except that as boats get bigger, they get more different--ballasted keels, inboard engines down in the hull, flybridges up in the air,... Where do you start?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which is why the OUPV limits the operator to six passengers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That's six paying passengers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ye. Precisely my point. So what they are saying is, we trust your judgement regarding the vessel you have selected for taking people out for hire, but if you intend to carry more than 6, we want to look at it. You could have a 100' yacht, but unless a naval architect and the Coasties put a number to it, it could never be used in commerce.

I am sure similar regulations must apply to Church buses, although they too are arguably engaged in commerce.

Ferry Captains in foreign countries routinely overload their vessels and if the crowd panics and runs to one side, the ship turns over. This is what happens when there is no government oversight.

While I am somewhat against enlarging government, it seems as if the boating world has been flying below the radar for some time. I think occupancy signs are a good idea in restaurants and on boats. The world is full of crappy Captains if you can call them that. They don't have common sense or disregard it... Give em a sticker to look at. We already have to post placards regarding discharging trash, oil, etc... That too would seem to be common sense, but the key word is "common."

sten

Edited by - redviking on 07/07/2012 06:08:42

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2012 : 06:35:18

At least one of the children that died was the owner's daughter. There is no greater punishment. My heart goes out to him at the same time it chstises him for his error. It's just tragic and sad. I'd imagine this guys intentions were pure. He just wanted to provide some pleasure to family and friends. Unfortunately, his ability to do that was destroyed by his poor judgment or, at the very least, his lack of knowledge. He should certainly feel the sting of the law but, again, he's already recieved his punishment.

I agree with the licensing requirements. There should also be endorsements for the specific type and size of vessel being operated.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2012 : 06:52:49

This just in... Puleasee!

Boating-safety organizations like the United States Power Squadrons have a rule of thumb for figuring out how many passengers a boat can handle: multiply the boat’s length by its width and divide by 15. For a boat like the Kandi Won, that calculation yields a capacity of 27.

Using those calculations, I suggest you all go out and put 14.333333333 people on your boat.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/07/nyregion/capsized-boat-may-not-have-been-overcrowded-owners-lawyer-says.html?_r=1&hp

sten

Edited by - redviking on 07/07/2012 06:58:07

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2012 : 09:11:38

14.33 would be one over the limit for a C-25.

But I believe that's the formula for determining the capacity for boats up to 20'--not sure it's meant to be scaled up from there. For example, a 20' boat with 7' beam would hold 9 people. A 15x6-footer would take six.

Another factor in this case, as I said before, is the bridge, which can put considerable weight up much higher. That should affect the "formula", and probably contributed to this tragedy.

In the grand scheme, something like this will happen from time to time--fortunately it will get a lot of attention and stir up righteous disdain for the poor soul who made the error in judgement that many others have made (and will make). Skippers everywhere will take note--some realizing that "there but for the grace of God, go I!"

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/07/2012 09:12:58

bigelowp
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USA
1773 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2012 : 15:35:31

The sad lesson here is that common sense is just not common! Too many people on the boat. Over confidence that a storm -- or wake -- would not happen or could not capsize the boat. In half a century living on the water I have never wanted to see fireworks from my boat as I know that as rare as common sense is individually, in numbers it becomes even rarer geometrically!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/07/2012 : 21:20:06

Peter: My lady Sue pointed you out to me at T-Club on the 4th while we were in line for dinner. I intended to track you down but lost you in the crowd--too bad!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/07/2012 21:20:51

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2012 : 16:54:51

Headlines on CNN for this incident: "No federal regulations exist for passenger limits on boats" (or something to that effect). So don't be surprised when the nanny state takes over boating to save us from our selves since we aren't capable. Won't matter that this sad accident is a rarity.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/08/2012 : 19:28:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Merrick
 ...So don't be surprised when the nanny state takes over boating to save us from our selves since we aren't capable. Won't matter that this sad accident is a rarity.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Drunk driving accidents (forbidden by the "nanny state") on our roads are "rarities". People dying because they won't wear seatbelts (a requirement from the "nanny state") is "a rarity." PWCs running over boats or children are "a rarity". When it kills one of your kids, suddenly it is not very rare.

Edited by - on

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 07/09/2012 : 15:54:18

Dave:

Next time in town let me know . . . . I am there at some point every weekend doing laps (or taking sips) . . . .

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 15:55:32

Dave I'm just tired of people immediately looking to the government to solve everything, which is what the cnn headlines were implying. Don't know why I threw it out there on a sailing forum. Older I getthe more I b---ch about the government.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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5362 Posts

Response Posted - 07/10/2012 : 18:23:35

Seems like the coasties (aka the Govt) are having a hard time retrieving the boat in 30 ft of water. The boat is "stuck" in the gunk at the bottom of the bay. I'm very surprised they can't raise the boat using floatation or tug boats.
Regs are good, I guess, unless folks completely ignore them. You can't regulate common sense.

Edited by - on

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