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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Boom kicker vs topping lift

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dave andersen
1st Mate

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85 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/08/2012 : 22:35:16

We presently have a boom kicker and are considering getting a topping lift when we rerig. Which is best? The rigger has quoted us $200 for the top. lift running from the mast head to the boom end turning block and then back down the boom to and thence to a cleat.

Is it worth the cost to keep the boom out of the cockpit with the topping lift?

Edited by - on

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 06:49:50

I have a topping lift and didn't know what a boom kicker was until reading about it on the Internet just now.

It seems to me that the boom kicker is nicer than the topping lift.

The only disadvantage I can muster might be that you cannot adjust the boom kicker from the cockpit?

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 08:22:24

The only advantage for a topping lift that I see is the ability to raise the boom high over the cockpit when you aren't sailing and don't want to bang your head. A boom kicker looks like it will raise it high enough to allow you to spill wind (sail control), but not much more.

The topping lift can be a pain when it hangs up on the leech of the sail. My sail doesn't have too large of a roach, but it still hangs up on the topping lift all the time at the top batten. I had to put sail tape over the batten pocket and batten tensioner to help prevent this.

A topping lift shouldn't cost $200. I use the Catalina Direct kit (which goes to a clam cleat on the boom) and it was about $80. It could probably be assembled for even less, there isn't very much involved with making a topping lift. Installation can be done without taking the mast down if you or someone else goes up the mast to attach it.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 08:29:57

Dave,

Is there something about your boomkicker that isn't working for you? Do you currently use the backstay pigtail to secure the boom?

I have a traditional wire/line topping lift led to the cockpit that works great. With the mainsail stowed and the mainsheet cinched up, the boom barely moves laterally. As to the (infamous) pigtail, I moved away from it over a decade ago after installing a proper topping lift.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 08:50:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 ...As to the (infamous) pigtail, I moved away from it over a decade ago after installing a proper topping lift.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Me too! The first time you forget to unhook the pigtail before turning away from a stiff wind with the sail up, is when you "park" it on the backstay permanently. I ordered my replacement rigging without the pigtail.

The one thing that talked me out of a boomkicker (or other rigid vang) was a number of comments on another forum that it was not good for supporting the weight of a person using the boom for balance or falling against it in the cockpit. The opinions were that a topping lift was better for safety. And if you want to be able to use the mainsheet tackle to hoist a MOB out of the water, a topping lift is necessary. Mine was never a significant problem with the leech of the sail, and I rigged it for easy adjustment--primarily for when not under way.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/09/2012 08:53:31

dragonf1y
1st Mate

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USA
34 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 09:05:50

I use my topping lift to raise the boom out of the cockpit as well and to help clear the pop top when up so I don't have to raise the boom at the gooseneck. When we raise our main that's when I loosen the topping lift and pull down on the boom until the main is taught. Then I cleat off the topping lift. When we're beating it's nearly fully tight so it doesn't swing around. Only time it swings around or touches the sail then is if we're going downwind and the sail is pushed far outside the cockpit to catch the wind. Then the boom raises up and the topping lift becomes pretty slack. This is the only way I've found under the sail to keep the topping lift from driving me nuts without constantly adjusting it.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 09:25:04

Boomkickers will not support the weight of a person leaning on the boom which people do a lot. Boom kickers pale when compared to the value of a topping lift which makes reefing much easier and help with light wind sail shape.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/09/2012 : 15:39:30

My topping lift is wire/line that terminates in a 2:1 with a jam cleat at the boom end. I have never considered running it to the cockpit to be worth the effort. You can make it expensive, but it is lightly loaded unless you forget to loosen it before hauling the boom down or lift a crew member out of the water and it doesn't need to be.

Edited by - on

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 06:14:02

I thought the pigtail was the topping lift!

I forgot to take it off once - that was exciting. I can't remember exactly what point of sail we were at that started the whole thing but we were in trouble and in a 'very excited' voice I told hubby 'The topping lift! the topping lift!' and hubby 'yelled' back at me 'Just take it off!' In a panic I did just that. Unfortunately this was not one of my brighter moments since I was at the helm at the time and to take it off meant letting go of the tiller. We did close to a 180. Luckly I had tightened the mainsheet back up before I jumped up onto the cockpit seat to release the pigtail. Otherwise I'm pretty sure I would have ended up in the water with that brilliant move. The turn was so violent that I was sort of swinging on the end of the boom for a few moments. Ah the memories.... :) We still 'discuss' that event from time to time. You know, the shoulda, coulda, wouldas of the event.

OK so now I need to research what a true topping lift looks like. Since my mast is down right now and all...

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 06:31:13

All a topping lift needs to do is go from a clevis pin at the mast-head to a little swivel block at the boom end, and forward to a cleat on the boom--it could be a "fairlead clam cleat", and then you can add a stopper knot for safety. I did it a little fancier, with a short 2:1 set-up above the boom, using a little block with a built-in jam cleat, which made raising and lowering easier. I don't have a picture.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/10/2012 06:42:04

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 06:32:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by waterbaby
 I thought the pigtail was the topping lift!

I forgot to take it off once - that was exciting. I can't remember exactly what point of sail we were at that started the whole thing but we were in trouble and in a 'very excited' voice I told hubby 'The topping lift! the topping lift!' and hubby 'yelled' back at me 'Just take it off!' In a panic I did just that. Unfortunately this was not one of my brighter moments since I was at the helm at the time and to take it off meant letting go of the tiller. We did close to a 180. Luckly I had tightened the mainsheet back up before I jumped up onto the cockpit seat to release the pigtail. Otherwise I'm pretty sure I would have ended up in the water with that brilliant move. The turn was so violent that I was sort of swinging on the end of the boom for a few moments. Ah the memories.... :) We still 'discuss' that event from time to time. You know, the shoulda, coulda, wouldas of the event.

OK so now I need to research what a true topping lift looks like. Since my mast is down right now and all...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Your experience with the pigtail is rather common and is something that has happened to me way too many times in the past (once is too many as you discovered) and the sooner you eliminate it from the equation, the better.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 06:59:51

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I did it a little fancier, with a short 2:1 set-up above the boom, using a little block with a built-in jam cleat, which made raising and lowering easier. I don't have a picture.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is similar to how the kit from Catalina Direct works.

The major components are a ~25' long vinyl coated cable with a block at one end and a loop at the other, a block for the boom, a padeye for the other side of the boom, a clam cleat that is mounted forward on the boom, and ~25' of 1/4" low stretch line.

The vinyl coated cable is mounted to the back of the masthead by it's loop. The block hangs in air a few feet off of the boom. The padeye is mounted on one side of the boom, the boom-mounted block is on the other side, and the clam cleat is mounted forward. The line runs from the padeye, over the block on the cable, back down to the turning block on the boom, and forward to the clam cleat. It gives you a 2:1 purchase. It would be easy to use additional turning blocks and a longer line to run the line down below the boom and back into the cockpit, but I haven't found this to be necessary.

You can see the components and a system drawing here:
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=481

My boat still has the pigtail, but it is just tied off to the backstay. I've also made the mistake of forgetting to disconnect it. In most conditions that isn't an issue, you just turn back into the wind and release it. In strong winds it can quickly lead to a minor broach.

Edited by - on

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 07:37:32

Thanks for the additional info. I think I understand how it attaches but I don't get how you operate it. Does it stay attached while you sail or do you need to disconnect it? I'm thinking you have to disconnect it so that it doesn't interfere with the sail. So how's that better? Sorry for the dumb question.

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 07:46:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by waterbaby
 I think I understand how it attaches but I don't get how you operate it. Does it stay attached while you sail or do you need to disconnect it? I'm thinking you have to disconnect it so that it doesn't interfere with the sail.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You never have to disconnect it, maybe just slacken it, but it is always attached. Rather than cleating it off on the boom, mine is led to the cabintop which I find easier to manage.

Edited by - dlucier on 08/10/2012 08:08:24

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 08:11:26

Thanks Don! You just answered another question for me which is what to do about fastening the end of the foot. I see you have a few blocks that help you tighten it. Mine didn't come with anything other than a bit of rope that you have to pull hard with and then try to keep it tight while you tie it off. Try as I might I've never gotten it tight enough for my liking. Where does the front of that line end?

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awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 08:52:41

You can run the outhaul to the cabin top or along the boom, depending on your preferences. I run my outhaul to the boom (just like the topping lift), but if I were to move one line to the cabin top that would be it. The outhaul is frequently used while under sail to optimize the sail shape, while the topping lift is rarely used. On my boat both the topping lift and outhaul come to cleats about 1/3rd of the way back from the gooseneck on the boom on the port side. They are different colored lines to make them easy to identify.

I use a 4:1 purchase system for my outhaul and it works nicely. It is easy to adjust under sail. That's been one of the biggest and cheapest improvements on my boat.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 09:49:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by waterbaby
 Thanks Don! You just answered another question for me which is what to do about fastening the end of the foot. I see you have a few blocks that help you tighten it. Mine didn't come with anything other than a bit of rope that you have to pull hard with and then try to keep it tight while you tie it off.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

In the top picture, you are looking at two different controls. One is the topping lift and the other is the outhaul for setting foot tension on the main.

My topping lift, like most, consists of a wire rope (with thimbles on each end) that is attached to the masthead and goes to within a couple of few of the boom. A small block is then attached to the wire rope end that is closest to the boom. The topping lift rope line is then led through this block. The topping lift can be cleated on the boom or led to the cockpit. I choose this route as it is sometimes tricky to make adjustments on the boom with the bimini up. The illustration below, while crude, shows the basic system. The bottom two pictures show the line turning at the base of the mast then to a cleat at the companionway.

Edited by - dlucier on 08/10/2012 09:49:56

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/10/2012 : 10:24:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by waterbaby
 ...Does it stay attached while you sail or do you need to disconnect it?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">With the sail up, I kept mine adjusted so it was just taut enough not to slap on the sail, but not enough to lift the boom--it still waved in the breeze. That also worked out as a good length for holding the boom up when dropping the sail. On my standard rig (higher boom), it was also enough to clear my bimini.

The upper part of the topping lift does not have to be wire or vinyl-covered wire--1/4" double-braid is fine.

The CD kit is fine, although the whole thing can be done with no mounting of hardware on the boom (cheek block, fairlead, cleat...) A simple swivel block and the Harken Micro Block shown below can do it all--mount the swivel block to a hole on the boom-end casting, and the Micro to the loop on the line from the mast-head. The Micro has a V-groove on the side that works as a jam cleat. That's what I used, with a stopper knot for "backup."

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/10/2012 10:25:58

waterbaby
Navigator

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USA
168 Posts

Response Posted - 08/11/2012 : 16:08:40

I get it. Thanks!

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