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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing keel cable break

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jfesi
Navigator

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USA
101 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/16/2003 : 17:49:53

The keel cable snapped on my 1984 (hull #4534) Catalina 25 while tied up at the dock. The keel plummeted down and the aft end of the keel broke through the after side of the fiberglass housing in the cabin. Water poured through the break (10" long x 1/4" wide) in the housing and I almost lost the boat before discovering the mishap.
The water level inside the boat was 6" over the seats. I used a 110V sump pump for 1 1/2 hours to get ahead of the in-flow. When the water was finally below the rupture, I was able to apply a major "band-aid" around the entire housing (using rags, plastic sheet, duct tape, string, rope, etc.)to stem the flow to a manageable level. I then set up a 500gph Rule Automatic hardwired to a battery and charger hookup.
I've been monitoring the situation for a week waiting for a weather window to sail the boat to a yard for permanent repair.
I've also applied heavy duty strapping under the boat, pulled taut with port and starboard winches to hold the keel in place,in what I can only surmise, to be a 45 degree angle.
Has any member been faced with a similar situation? I'd appreciate any information regarding a permanent fix to the trunk housing in the cabin. Steel reinforcing plate? Or just a good strong fiberglass patch? Many thanks for a reply.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 18:07:35

Sorry to hear of your troubles. When I owned a swinger, this scenario was always on my mind and, from spending time around this forum, it appears this accident isn't all that rare. Most people advise to replace those dreaded "to-hulls"(even though I never knew of one to fail), but I think one should be more aware of swing keel failures because I have definitely heard of this happening more than a few times.

You need to look at this C25 Technical Tip article from Ken Cave on his trunk repair. In it he describes what he did to repair the swing keel trunk.

<img src="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/dragn5.jpg" border=0>
<img src="http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/dragn4.jpg" border=0>

Here's the link and good luck.

http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/dragn2.html

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 01/16/2003 19:48:53

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 20:26:25

Hey, sorry to hear about your mishaps..
the previous owner of my boat had the same thing happen. I now have to deal with the badly done "patchwork" argh!
I plan to take the boat out of the water mid feb, early march. I plan on removing the keel completely for better access and probably let a pro re-do the patching once and for all.. I'll take pics and post the progress...
hope things work out for you!

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 22:11:15

You mentioned on yours that the cable snapped. Being new to Catalina SK's... is that the usual mode of failure in these keel drop accidents?

It sounds as if one should leave the keel down... or very close to all the way down, keeping just enough tension so the keel is just "off" the hull rest. About the only time I have my Venture keel cranked all the way up is when the boat is going on the trailer.

More questions...

What's the common service life on the keel hardware... is this something to change out every couple of years?

Would it make sense to retrofit the next size bigger cable?
(I'd already purchased the hardware 'kit' from CD to replace mine)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 23:44:18

I'm sorry to hear about your mishap. When you state that the "keel cable snapped" did the actual cable snap or did it come loose from the swaged on fitting?

I personally don't trust the safety record of the swaged fittings. I'm planning on replacing my cable next month with a new swaged on sta-lok or norseman. The 1/4 cable should be more than adquate to support the keel. The week link is the swaged fitting.

Gobs of plastaline clay can help stem the flow. You may also want to use underwater epoxy paste to shove into the crack. You'll want to do it in layers of expoxy. I've also been know to stop 'sweating' type leaks with super glue with a kicking agent, then I apply a patch of underwater epoxy paste. Once all the leaks are stopped, cover with fiberglass cloth and epoxy.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - albert on 01/16/2003 23:46:16

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2003 : 23:49:54

CB, You are foregiven for possibly restarting one of the longest running discussion issues this forum regularly addresses because of your relative newness here. The failure of the cable when the keel is up has to be the biggest weakness in the C25. I have even had my swing keel run over the submerged cables holding our marina in place and then falling, fortunately not very far. I will just say that I don't trust the cable, no matter how new it is, to hold that 1500lb keel for extended periods of time. I define extended as only when absolutely necessary. My keel remains down when in the slip. I am not against the swing keel, it certainly has worked fine for my needs. If I didn't trailer the boat regularly I would have a fixed keel. The cable you ordered from CD should be fine, just don't depend on it never failing and that means limiting the opportunities for it to do just that.

I am pulling out of the water in the next few weeks for a much needed bottom job. I plan on doing all the maintenance on the keel system to reduce the likelyhood of Rochester's dilema. Sometimes no matter what you do STUFF HAPPENS.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 00:52:57

Rochester,

Sorry to hear about your problem on the c25. I don't have a c25 but following this forum and hearing of other doing it, maybe a swing to wing conversion is something to look at. You wouldn't have to worry about the cable break again.

I thought you had a c250wb in Florida?

Bryan Beamer
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Gary B.
Admiral

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USA
969 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 01:41:28

Having just replaced two cables last summer, one on a "project boat" that I fixed up and sold, and one on Encore!, my '78 swinger I have owned off and on since '83, I can attest that the cable replacement job is a snap. It doesn't take long when the boat is on its trailer, or on the hard. IMHO, in freshwater the cable has lasted for me for years, but knowing what I know now, I would probably change every 5 or so. In salt, I would think about maybe every two. That may be more often than needed, but it's only a $50.00 deal, or thereabouts, but is very good insurance.
BTW: My keel is nearly always in the down position, unless there's a good reason to raise it. Sorry to hear of the problem. Sounds to me like you're lucky to have saved the boat! Good job!

Gary B.
Encore! #685 SK/SR

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 02:21:02

"I can attest that the cable replacement job is a snap." - Gary

Gary, must you use the words "cable" and "snap" in the same sentence? <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 06:30:49

Brad,

When I read your posting I could relate to your shock at what happened. Early November we had a broken water main at our lake house, and I came for the w/e to 2-3 inches of water all over the living room.

I'm sorry you had to experience such a disaster.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 09:17:59

This might be a good time to consider a wing keel conversion, available from Catalina Yachts. Especially if you are insured. In that case I would attempt to get the insurance company to help.
Good luck,
Mark L.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 13:31:52

"This might be a good time to consider a wing keel conversion, available from Catalina Yachts. Especially if you are insured. In that case I would attempt to get the insurance company to help." - Mark

Hey! Mark, I think you are on to something here. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle> If the boatyard tells the insurance company that the "ONLY" way to totally prevent the cable mishap from ever happening again, is to install a wing keel, then they might go along with the idea and pay for the mod.

If this works, I wonder if it will trigger a rash of cable cuttings...er, I mean,...unfortunate cable partings! <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 14:30:43

Mark/Don,

If only it were that easy. I tried to negotiate a wing retrofit package with the insurance people...even offering to go the extra $ out of pocket. Though $2600 was the adjusters damage report the insurance people wouldn't/couldn't conceive of going to a different keel. What I had was what I was going to keep. The repair lasted half way through the next season and at that point I bit the bullet and paid the full price of the wing. Hate to ride high on this old bromide but it was the best money ever spent on my swing.
Val on the hard DAGNABIT.

Val Bisagni

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 15:14:04

Just out of curiosity... How much for the wing kit? from other posts i read that the shipping is around $1000-2000! <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

How about the installation? any one got a quote from a yard?

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 15:47:02

Here is a keel shipping clue that was shared with me.

Order the keel through your local Catalina dealer. Have the keel put on a rig that is on it's way to that dealer with a boat. Kind of like a piggy back ride.

The pro-rated shipping will be a lot less or nothing.

Make sure the dealer charges the same as Catalina for the keel. Hold them to it.

I thought that was a darn good idea.

P

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 16:24:20

I looked at a swing to wing converted boat a few months ago. The boat was in very poor shape so I didn't buy it. The owner said that the previous owner had the conversion done at the catalina factory in Largo.
Might be worth looking into.

I'm Going to look at an 89 wing this weekend, and buy it if in good shape.

Frank
fgloss@knology.net

Frank

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

Members Avatar

USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 17:17:02

Val, that just amazes me. Any insurance outfit worth its salt would want to reduce risk. Too bad they often won't listen.
ML

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Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2003 : 20:31:57

I was hoping we would avoid this topic this year. I think I'll start saving my pennies for that wing keel conversion.

Shelby
'82 C25 "Third S", #3208, SK<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle>SR, Honda 9.9, Lake Pleasant AZ

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 13:52:32

How much for the swing to keel kit from catalina yachts??

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 06:40:11

Val,

I'm also surprised by the narrow thinking of your insurance company.

We have just gotten back into our lake house after the flood and we expanded the house by about 50%. Statefarm paid to "restore the original dwelling to new condition" and I played with those numbers to get the expansion done for about half price.

I would think that it would work the same way for marine insurance. Adjuster says 2600, then you have 2600 to work with to repair and upgrade.

makes sense to me.

Also a wing reduces the risk to the insurance carrier. Mmmmm? something seems rotten in Denmark.

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 10:59:11

[quote]
Val, that just amazes me. Any insurance outfit worth its salt would want to reduce risk. Too bad they often won't listen.
ML
Mark, Insurance company policies never surprise me. Take for instance the letter received yesterday from our car insurer...LARGE PRINT ACROSS THE TOP CLAIMING OUR INSURANCE WAS CANCELLED FOR LACK OF PAYEMENT...then once they have your attention, somewhere in print size nearly microscopic the say ,"if you've already sent in your payement disregard this notice". Well after being with this company since insurance became mandatory, I've decided to find another insurer.
Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni

Edited by - on

Brooke Willson
Admiral

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USA
983 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 17:11:06

My two cents on this issue, for the umpteenth time. . .

"Even Chance" is a 1985 SKTR. It has been in water year-round for its entire life, and in salt water for the last nine years or more. The original keel cable was replaced three years ago.

Contrary to common advice, I dock the boat with the keel UP, on the theory that doing so keeps most of the cable out of salt water most of the time. I also believe it reduces the amount of flex on the keel hanger and the pivot pin. Those were also replaced for the first time three years ago.

Does the keel require more maintenance than the wing or fin? Of course. If it breaks, are the results more catastrophic? I don't know how to break a fixed keel. Should the swing primarily be used in fresh water? That's what the manual says. Should the cable and other hardware be inspected and replaced regularly? You betcha. Does Murphy's Law apply to sailboats? Absolutely.

Do I love my boat? You'd better believe it.

I don't know how many hundred swing keel C25's were produced out of the six thousand or so total run. Whatever that SK number is, it seems to me that a very small percentage of those boats show up in this thread complaining about SK disasters. Granted, if my boat had been sunk by my swing keel, I'd complain long and loud, too. It seems to me, nevertheless, that the failure rate is pretty low, and we should pay attention to that.

Brooke

Edited by - brooke willson on 01/19/2003 17:12:40

Edited by - brooke willson on 01/19/2003 17:18:11

Edited by - brooke willson on 01/19/2003 20:35:15

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 22:24:03

My guess is that the weak point in the swing keel system is the swaged on fitting. Replacing the swage fitting with a swageless would increase the safety of the SK.

I can see when I'm retracting the keel that if I don't pay attention to how many turns on the crank I've got I could even use the winch to try to PULL the cable out of the swage. I plan on painting or somehow marking the cable so that I know when I'm almost done cranking.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

mroettersr
Navigator

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USA
148 Posts

Response Posted - 01/20/2003 : 00:17:52

I replaced my keel cable last season when I discovered some fish hooks higher up the cable around the drum. The replaced cable had a thimble with a nicro pressed fitting at the keel end whereas the cable from CD had swagged fitting that had to filed some to fit properly. I seems to me that the former arrangement was stronger as the forces pulling the cable from the fitting would be reduced by half by virtue of the cable turning around at the thimble. Does anyone else have the same arrangemet as my old cable and do you believe it is stronger?

Mike Roetter
'83 C25 #3568 SK/SR
Marblehead on Lake Erie

Edited by - on

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