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another "down wind high seas" question

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/16/2012 : 06:29:52

....of a different nature ......

All this following sea discussion has got me thinking about a situation I ran into a couple years ago. Not following seas but standing seas that present their own set of difficulties. I was coming in through our Ponce Inlet here in Daytona Beach and hit it at a full outgoing tide, probably 4 knots, had a wind from the stern probably 7 knots with very choppy standing waves 2 to 3 feet, 4 to 5 with passing larger vessels. And with those passing boats and larger waves coming from the beam I had to quarter them as best I could without getting my boat sideways. I think I had a 110 up, the main all the way out and the outboard at 3/4 throttle. IT WAS A MESS

! Much corrective steering as the bow wanted to dart back and forth. The wind would lull and change directions (it tends to do that as you transition from ocean to river) enough to bring the main from one side to the other so I found myself grabbing the main sheet to lessen the impact. I could have just pulled the sheet in and centered the boom but wanted the extra speed it produced. I was a very busy guy for 10 or 15 minutes, but it seemed like forever. Got through it with just a sprained thumb where the mainsheet wrapped it on the way by, but affirmed to myself that I would give tidal changes an even larger (tides are influenced by many things so aren't always like clock work and sometimes can be off by an hour or more) berth in the future. So I'm interested in how anyone else would approach this, what they might have done differently .................

Dave Robbins
PO to*Bamboo*
'89 SR/WK #5877
Daytona Bch., FL

http://bambooc25.weebly.com/

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PZell
Admiral

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USA
548 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2012 : 12:58:36

Dave, we can get those conditions here on SFBay just north of San Mateo Bridge (HWY92)where channel narrows and current against wind builds steep short period waves. Nearly popped me out of cockpit once. TIP: In conditions where boom will swing around because of rolling or wakes, you can put on a preventer to hold it over instead of trying to grab it or the sheet. I often put on a line from boomvang area to widest beam. I keep a block on genoa track for it.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2012 : 20:39:11

Wow--a preventer in an inlet with standing waves and tide against the wind?? First, I'd rather face the prospect of an unexpected jibe than a backwinded sail in an inlet... But more specifically, I'd get the SAILS DOWN. Having gone to the Dark Side, I have a beef with sailors who try to tack or otherwise transit inlets in other than ideal conditions (slack water and wind on the beam) under sail. An inlet is a place where you need maximum control, including the ability to slow down, stop, and stay out of oncoming traffic in very tricky sea conditions and currents. It is not a place to practice a sailboat's "priveleges" under COLREGS. Drop the sails and turn on the motor!

$+!nkp*++er out.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/16/2012 20:41:23

PZell
Admiral

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Response Posted - 08/16/2012 : 20:59:16

Dave, The preventer runs from boom vang tang to block on genoa rail and back to cam cleat on cabin side just before the cockpit. It is easy to quick release. The block and cam cleat are used for tweakers for the spinnaker, but can be used to do preventer duty as described.

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5908 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 05:40:32

I'm not an advocate of preventers when sailing downwind in high winds, but they can be useful to tame a flopping boom when sailing in lighter winds through choppy seas, to keep the boom from swinging back and forth as a result of the chop, especially if your preventer was easy for you to set and release quickly from the cockpit, or if you had crew to help you set and release it. A 7 kt wind would have been low enough to make a preventer in that situation reasonable and useful. But, the specific circumstances suggest that you had a number of alternatives to consider.

If you were running against a 4 kt current, your outboard motor should have been able to make a bit over 2 kts over the ground and against the current, which would have been slow progress, but would have been enough to get through the inlet under power and without using the sails at all. That assumes that your prop is deep enough to not cavitate badly in the chop. If you wanted to get some added push from your sails, you could have lowered the mainsail before entering the inlet, and used the jib for a little extra push. That would have provided some assistance from the sails, while avoiding the need for you to struggle with the swinging boom.

Another alternative would be to deal with it the same way they did it in the days of tall ships, i.e., plan to leave on a falling tide and enter on a rising tide. (I know, that isn't always practical or necessary nowadays, but it's an obvious alternative that should be considered.)

Another alternative would be to stand off until you can get through the inlet. I once had to pass through a bascule bridge in Florida in my C22, to get from the Gulf of Mexico to the ICW, and my 5 hp outboard engine couldn't overcome the current to get through the bridge. My only recourse would have been to stand off and wait for the tide to abate, but for the fact that I was able to run the engine at full throttle, steer the boat over to the bridge abutment, step off the boat onto the bridge abutment with her engine running at full throttle and push her through the bridge, and then re-board the boat. The current near the bridge abutment is usually a bit less than the current at the center of the bridge.

Often you can get some relief from a strong adverse current by steering the boat to shallower water, where the current will be reduced, but you have to be very careful at any inlet to not get into water that is so shallow that it creates breakers, because breakers are commonplace at many inlets, where the water becomes too shallow.

Because our displacement boats are limited to their hull speed, there are occasionally currents that they just can't overcome, and we have to be prepared to stand off and wait for the tide to change. That's one of the benefits that Dave enjoys with "Sarge." If he encounters an adverse current, he just opens up the throttle, and 150 or more raging horses overcome it easily.

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 05:52:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 ...I could have just pulled the sheet in and centered the boom but wanted the extra speed it produced...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">With a 4 knot current against you and a 7 knot breeze behind you, I question the extra speed. At 3/4 throttle, you were probably approaching hull-speed through the water (6.3 knots)--that's as fast as you can go. Against a 4 knot current, that's a net 2.3 knots max over the bottom--wind will not increase that unless it's enough to get your bow up out of the water, which is unlikely with 7 knots of wind (maybe 5 apparent), and standing waves trying to stop you. The most good your sails might have done then is to reduce your rolling motion, by being sheeted in tightly. That simplifies everything.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5418 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 15:37:15

When I had Passage on the Housatonic River in Stratford there were times when I had to combat 4kt currents. From the inlet to the Marina is about 1.5 miles and there are stretches with greater and lesser currents. At times of spring tides there were places that I did no more than 1kt over ground. Somedays it took me 15 minutes to traverse and others it took me 45 minutes, depending on tides. And the currents were slack for at most 45 minutes so usually you were dealing with them.
Add to that the river's mouth faced SE, so when the big rollers came across LI Sound on a SE fetch and the river's flow was going out downstream, the rollers would turn into six-foot short interval square breakers lining up in the channel. One 3/4 mile stretch was particularly bad so you really had to decide if you were a go or a no-go when you got to that point. Once they got going they were quite persistent (hours).
While you could calculate the likelihood of bad conditions there, it was not an exact science by any stretch of the imagination. In my 3.5 years there I only had to turn back once. I couldhave waited but would have run short of daylight.
Now I'm glad to be in Milford where there is a much smaller channel with a much smaller volume of water. I've occasionally experienced some larger breakers, but it's only 5 minutes from dock to the mouth and you are through the worst of it in 2 minutes. I've seen Stinkpotter wakes that were larger!

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 19:47:43

I guess I would have stood offshore and waited for slack. A 4kt current is enough to make things very ugly should the motor crap out. And an inlet is not a great place to try to sail thru.

Preventers not rigged to be released from the cockpit are a huge liability. I was delivering a Pacific Seacraft with the owner onboard and the owner rigged a preventer to port, and was running the jib to starboard in 5-8 foot seas running downwind. Unfortunately, he had plotted the vessel over a shoal and when the bottom dropped out there was no choice but to turn to port. A backwinded main with waves on the beam turned her on her side. Was the closest I have come to becoming one with the ocean forever.

Sten

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/17/2012 : 21:29:21

I was in the inlet once, going out, and I'm not sure where the tide was, wasn't real treacherous or anything but the outboard quit. I just happened to have the 110 up so came about and sailed right back in. I realized right then that in almost all circumstances I want a sail up while in the inlet. It's quite narrow and has a rock jetty on the north (check it out on Google Earth) that would be pretty easy to get in to. And keep in mind I didn't feel in danger, just a tense few minutes and overworked. And I'd say I was probably making 1 1/2 or 2 knots. The tide might be 4 knots and motor 6.5 knots but the wave action kills momentum and really adds to the equation. I also think the winds were light enough that a preventer wouldn't be a danger. But the winds also make drastic changes in direction as you come in or go out, so do you want to limit your options? Maybe I should have centered the main or dropped it beforehand and that would have helped the boat be less squirrely (kept the center of momentum more forward).

Edited by - DaveR on 08/17/2012 21:31:12

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5908 Posts

Response Posted - 08/18/2012 : 05:32:22

If you use a 3-4 part block and tackle for a preventer, it takes time to set it up and to release it, and you can't do it from the cockpit. When you're sailing in moderate-to-light wind, you don't need a preventer with a 3-4 part mechanical advantage to prevent the mainsail from gybing. Thus, since I only rig a preventer in moderate-to-light winds, I use a spare length of line to rig it, and lash the boom to a grab rail or stanchion or chainplate, using a slip knot. Then I lead the line to the cockpit. When I want to release the preventer, so I can either trim or gybe the mainsail, all I have to do is give a light tug on the line and it releases the boom. I can release it instantly, don't need to leave the cockpit, and don't need crew to release it.

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DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 08/19/2012 : 10:08:25

I like your preventer idea Steve!

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