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Snapped rudder in half

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Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/28/2012 : 17:39:59

I have a '78 and somehow snapped my rudder this last weekend just as I was entering the harbor. I didnt seem to hit anything whatsoever. In fact, the break was so smooth I continued to attempt to steer for 3-5 seconds as my boat rounded up into the wind, thinking I had full control, only to eventually and frightfully look down at water where there should be rudder. It broke a couple inches above the waterline, right at the first set of bolts at the first pintle. Again, not a shudder to speak of from the tiller. The only aspect I can point to is, upon entering the harbor, I tightened my sails to catch a higher angle which in turn heeled the boat. Not heeled to any extreme or even moderate degree, but there was added pressure to the rudder as it became a foil. Not a lot, but more than the very broad reach I was on minutes prior. Couple questions.

Is this a common occurance or a freak accident? I did a search and I dindt get any hits on a rudder breaking for no reason.

If this is a common occurance, how can I avoid it in the future? Were the pintle bolts too tight? Was the rudder incorreclty mounted?

The common consensus is to use the Foss company rudders for a replacement, but Im just so damn poor considering I recently purchased the boat and replaced a torn main and oversized jib, is there another retailer or is there another physical option, such as a cheaper rudder that will still fit the boat? The Foss replacement is $650, per his quote yesterday.

Edited by - Sam Cyphers on 08/28/2012 17:46:09

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2012 : 17:56:18

Interesting... You don't give us any info on your boat, but that looks like the fiberglass balanced rudder that Catalina used starting in about 1988, and Catalina Direct has been selling for the years following that. (I bought one to replace the older original.) That's the first one of those I've heard of breaking like that--other designs, especially the older unbalanced model, have had many breaks at that lower pintle. That's the major stress point, especially when heeling through big chop, which can put lateral impact forces on the blade. You can check with our "Swap Meet" guys who are parting out boats, but I suspect you'll only find the older, wood-cored, unbalanced model.

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2012 : 18:10:03

Dave, its a 1978 250, but I dont know the specifics of the old rudder. If ironically floated past me as I bobbed around the harbor, and, at the time I was too flustered to think to jump in the water with my measuring tape and mark design stats. The only clue is extra pintles which came with the boat. Im guessing it was replaced with a new rudder as its too old to have a full fiberglass style.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2012 : 19:35:01

I went through this back in June. But mine was foss foam unballanced rudder.

http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25166

Thread starts with a crack at pintle... then getting it reparied.... snapping few miles out... and getting foss rudder.

I know what you mean in terms of cash and making the call... but for me getting that foss rudder (from CA - Finco Fab) was the best decision I've made. Boat handles soo much better and i'm able to steer with 2 fingers even in 15kt+ wind.

They quoted me 650 as well... but with shipping to Niagara Fall, NY I paid 720 (they've dropped 50 as shipping was 120). They only thing I've noticed about that rudder that it is super buoyant - but seems that everyone is experiencing that.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/28/2012 : 21:22:05

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 Dave, its a 1978 250...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I assume you mean 25 (C-25), and apparently it's a replacement rudder--as I said, the later balanced design. I'm deducing that from the shape of what's left and the foam core. The line of the aft edge of the original rudder was straight top to bottom, and the newer balanced one had that bend from angled to vertical just about at the level of the lower pintle. Plus the original (1977-1987 or so) had wood core in the head where the pintles attached.

I'm guessing the "extra pintles" were from the original rudder--the newer one didn't fit the old pintles very well from my experience.

I'm only trying to clarify my reply because I think someone should know exactly what they have when (1) it fails, and (2) they want to replace it with something.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 08/28/2012 21:25:03

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2012 : 05:01:07

I don't know of any reason why you can't fabricate a rudder out of wood, preferably mahogany or perhaps oak. That's what rudders were usually made of in the days before fiberglass. It should keep you sailing for at least a couple years - long enough to save your money for a factory made replacement.

When mine broke, I was lucky enough to find a used one advertised for sale on our Swap Meet.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2012 : 06:46:26

Where are you located? I have a rudder that will carry you for a little while until you save up for a new one.

I don't know of options cheaper than $650ish.

Rudder failures are not uncommon at all. Usually it happens on the wood core ones though, and that is a foam core model.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2012 : 08:15:56

Something else occurred to me regarding the newer foam core, balanced rudder... As I said, my older pintle brackets didn't fit around the new blade too well--I had them modified a little by a machine shop. (They were too strong for me to spread and bend.) I'm suspicious, from that break, that somebody may have mounted the brackets in a way that stressed the fiberglass shell--either by forcing them on or over-tightening the bolts. It's something to watch out for in the future.

Edited by - on

John Russell
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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2012 : 15:00:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Something else occurred to me regarding the newer foam core, balanced rudder... As I said, my older pintle brackets didn't fit around the new blade too well--I had them modified a little by a machine shop. (They were too strong for me to spread and bend.) I'm suspicious, from that break, that somebody may have mounted the brackets in a way that stressed the fiberglass shell--either by forcing them on or over-tightening the bolts. It's something to watch out for in the future.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That was my very first thought, too.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2012 : 16:29:40

Not happy to see that. One of the weakest links for sure is the rudder. Call Frank.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 08/29/2012 : 21:43:35

My first impression is that that is an awfully clean break for both the foam and glass.

Edited by - on

cshaw
Captain

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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2012 : 07:04:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 I have a '78 and somehow snapped my rudder this last weekend just as I was entering the harbor.

Is this a common occurance or a freak accident? I did a search and I dindt get any hits on a rudder breaking for no reason.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I don't know how common it is, but I snapped my rudder in two in 1978 (the boat is a 1976) while power reaching under spinnaker offshore of Ventura, CA.

The replacement rudder has been fine since 1978, but I think I am certainly going to look it over a lot closer this next haulout!!!

Glad you did not have any other damage from the incident!!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

treeder65
1st Mate

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USA
50 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2012 : 15:50:30

Sam,
Here's an old post by someone who made their own.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=24807&SearchTerms=Balanced,rudder,

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 14:08:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Not happy to see that. One of the weakest links for sure is the rudder. Call Frank<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Agreed..Even the new balanced rudders are poorly designed relying on some foam and a thin covering of glass for strength. What is needed is a stainless grid in the center of the foam to give it some vertical strength. Even a surfboard has a stringer in it to make it strong. They put Re-bar in concrete for the same reason.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 14:36:13

I have a friend who just broke his rudder....hunter 260 with an aftermarket rudder that was solid plastic?

Edited by - on

bigelowp
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1778 Posts

Response Posted - 09/06/2012 : 20:27:50

This is interesting to me as I replaced my delaminating original rudder with a new balanced epoxy rudder from CD six years ago. When I did there was much chatter on this forum about how the epoxy version had the tendency to snap in half under stress like this situation. Thus far I have had no problems with my rudder but this event does give me pause for thought. I would have thought the tried and true glassed in foam would crack but not snap under excessive load. You might contact Catalina Yachts to get their input on different rudder mfg options.

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 15:49:03

Hey everyone, Im just now getting around to the broken rudder (it was a blessing, I fixed a billion little things I wouldnt have got to had I been spending every weekend sailing) and I was just wondering if anybody had any advice/insight/last words regarding attaching the rudder? Im going with the new Foss rudder, hopefully picking it up this weekend. Here is my plan:

I need to locate some kind of nylon bushing to fit the gudgeon. The pintle is 1/2 inch and the gudgeon opening is 3/8th, I believe. Would anybody know if that is correct, and where I could pick up something that would work? I checked both Home Depots in the area and they apparently have stopped carrying bushings. I will try some local hardware stores too.

Im was going to simply match the previous rudder bolt pattern to the new rudder, but I am concerned how easily it will drop into place given the new rudder profile matches the hull of the boat so closely. It makes me wonder if some people pre drill holes into the rudder, then snug the rudder tightly into place under the hull where it matches perfectly, then put the pintles in the gudgeons, THEN attach the pintles to pre drilled holes in the rudder. I hope that makes sense. I attached a picture of the rudder fabrication I am purchasing as well as a google image. Does anybody have any advice here, because there is no way I want to screw up and drill two sets of holes in the rudder.

Edited by - Sam Cyphers on 01/22/2013 15:52:30

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3321 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 18:05:39

Ace Hardware has brass bushings which can be turned down to fit.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 18:19:08

On my '89 I have to turn the rudder hard-over to get it to slip out from under the skeg on the hull.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2013 : 19:44:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 ...The pintle is 1/2 inch and the gudgeon opening is 3/8th, I believe...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">No bushing will make that fit... Are those numbers backward, or are the gudgeon holes 5/8"?

You can always adjust the position of the rudder upward with a few washers on top of each gudgeon. I had to mount my new balanced rudder a little lower (pintles higher) than it was designed for so that the tiller would be able to tilt up under the traveler. So there was a bit of a gap between the "step" on the rudder and the skeg it goes under. I figured that might be an advantage so if I ran over a lobster pot warp, it wouldn't get jammed hard between the rudder and the skeg. (The balanced design more precisely matched the later transom design that didn't have the cutout under the traveler.)

Measure five times and drill once!

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2013 : 13:55:58

Dave, thanks a ton for that insight, I hadnt thought about it but have a '78 which does have a cutout under the traveler (the picture I posted was a google image showing the hull configuration, not my exact boat). So I will makes my connections based on tiller clearance/gudgeon placement, and let the rudder fall where it may in relation to the hull, like yours. Thanks again for that, I could have easily considered my tiller height after setting the pintles to the rudder. And yes, yes, sorry, Im an idiot. The numbers are backwards, its 5/8".

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2013 : 15:30:33

The 3/8 pintles and gudgeons were used on early boats then Catalina went to 1/2 in. Why don't you upgrade your Gudgeons to the newer 1/2in with the bushings from CD? Makes the rudder silent. No more clunking noises and they are also built a little stronger.

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2013 : 16:19:06

Hey Scott, it definitely has the new 1/2" gudgeons, the broken rudder was actually a "newer" balanced style with the larger pintles and gudgeons already in place. But even though its a newer set up, the bushing on the lower gudgeon is gone while the top is fine. I guess I could get one new gudgeon and replace, but I figured a nylon or brass bushing was a small fraction of the cost.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2013 : 16:24:50

I believe that CD sells the bushings if you just missing one.
http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm/product/963_83/gudgeon-bushing-only.cfm

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2013 : 13:04:15

Well dont I feel stupid. Ordered, problem solved, thanks again everyone!

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