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mowrangler
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/31/2012 : 07:45:48

Headed out for a little sail yesterday evening after work, as I wanted to get a little tiller time before the remnants of Isaac hit our area... I guess I was a little late. While sailing on a close reach in ~11 knot winds, I got hit by about 2-3 minutes of what I assume was 25+ knot gusts. It literally knocked my 250 to her side so fast I barely had time to react. All I could do was loose the sheets and let 'er luff, and even then it kept me at a 45 degree heel for quite some time. I didn't really have enough leverage to do much with the tiller initially, but ultimately let 'er glide on in to a sandbar along the edge of the lake.

After getting 'er beached, I climbed up to the mast and dropped the halyard for the main. The furler was too tight to pull from the cockpit, but when I was up at the mast I was able to grab the line with a little more leverage and get the headsail (a 110) back in. I pulled the centerboard the rest of the way up, along with the rudder. After the wind calmed down a little again, I dropped the motor and started the process of trying to get back out into the water. Ultimately my boat hook wasn't strong enough to use to push off, but between the whisper pole and the motor I was able to maneuver enough to get back out into the water and head back into the marina to check things over.

So - I'm looking for a bit of critique from some of you who have been doing this for a while. This is literally my third time taking the boat out so I'm still quite green.

What I think I did right-

For starters, I had a PFD on and the main was already reefed when I left the marina. I stayed calm and released the sheets when I felt like I couldn't get control.

What I am not sure about -

I chose to let her ride up on the beach rather than trying to keep it in the water. I have a water ballast boat and was able to work my way off the sand, but if I had any kind of keel it could have been much worse. Of course, I know that the squall only lasted a few minutes now, but at the time I wasn't sure if it was going to end that quick. Would I have been better trying to fight the tiller to get it pointed into the wind and stay on the water?

Should I have called for a mayday on the VHF? As soon as I felt able I chose to jump on deck and get the sails down, but I wondered if I should have raised a distress call before trying to mitigate the situation? As it happened, a lady who lived in one of the houses on the lake saw the gust hit and called 911 on my behalf, but I was already out and at the marina before finding out.

Things I know I missed -

I had been looking at average speed online and not top gusts. Had I looked more closely I would have seen that they were predicting gusts up to 28 knots.

I could have been running the jib partially furled from the start. When I started letting the job unfurl in the cove, the wind caught it and pulled it all the way out and I never went back to reduce the headsail.

Opportunities to upgrade - So, as I mentioned, I have only had the boat on the water for a few weeks and knew there were some changes I wanted to make. This confirms my desire to move the main halyard and reef lines to the cockpit. I also feel like I either need to add ball bearings to the FF2, or possibly even upgrade to a larger firler.

What do you guys think?

Ross B
95 Catalina 250 WB #29
Moving up to 90 Catalina 28 in June 2015
Four Winds
Spokane, MO

Edited by - on

CarbonSink62
Navigator

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USA
208 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 07:55:59

Others with more experience will comment on your technique (I'm sure!) but this is a big fear of mine. A half mile off a lee shore and the wind suddenly picks up so much that I can't even get the sails down, much less use them to move the boat. 30-35kt gusts, the boat heeled over massively, sails flapping like mad and I'm hanging over the transom trying to get the outboard in the water. All the while the clock is ticking, 100 feet closer to shore; 200 feet... In the perfect doomsday scenario, the Admiral is onboard.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 09:04:29

I'm not going to second-guess your decisions. It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. I think that you did what was exactly right for you at that moment given your experience.

Having said that, I think you should know, while maybe not ideal and probably not very comfortable, your boat can handle that kind of wind and come out the other side with a smile on her face. One thing you should know is that a lee shore (not to be confused with "in the lee") is probably the most dangerous of places to be in a blow. Boats are made for water not dirt. Wind blowing you toward shore (lee shore) can put you on the rocks in a hurry if you do nothing to stop it.

Intentionally beaching your boat is a different issue. However, it might not have been the best choice. Once you regained control of the tiller, you probably should have headed for open water rather than the shore. I know that sounds counter-intuitive but it probably would have been the better choice.

I think I would have pointed the boat into the wind to allow the sails to luff and then shorten the headsail and maybe tuck in another reef in the main if you felt the need. If your furler can't be shortened from the cockpit, you need to look into that. The lines may not be running true. There may be too much of an angle on the lines. The line may simply be jammed in the drum. There are a dozen other reasons but, our furler should certainly work form the cockpit. When mine has jammed, it has been when I've attempted to furl the sail when there has been too much tension on the sail and the line jams itself in the drum. That results in a trip forward and usually when you want to go up there the absolute least.

No, I don't think you needed to call the cavalry on VHF16. What I think you need to do, is continue sailing your boat in increasingly stronger winds. You need to gain confidence in your vessel. Particularly, you need to actually feel the righting power of your ballast system. You boat was likely never in any real danger of capsize but, even it it had, the ballast would have popped you back up assuming the lake is deep enough to allow capsize in the first place. (i.e. the mast didn't hit the bottom). Even at that, 25-30 knot winds just aren't likely to be strong enough to knock you down once you've dumped the sails.

Okay, I said I wasn't going to Monday morning quarterback and then wrote all this. Sorry. Again, I think your choices were the ones you believed to be the safest for you at the moment.

Edited by - John Russell on 08/31/2012 09:10:30

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 09:12:22

I had similar issue about 1 1/2 months ago when winds picked up suddenly and I had a 150 genoa completely unfurled and no reefs on a tall rig. Winds went from about 5-10kts to about 50 kts. Total loss of control of sails and let them flap. Pulled the main in a bit to get some headway but was drifting toward shore sideways. I had no speed to tack but I took a chance and jibed and hoped my stays held...which they did. Then as I headed back into center of the river (sideways), I had time to regroup, I let out my sails even more so and then had a chance to lower the outboard without risking going into the drink. I started it up and then headed into the wind. Once into the wind, the boat was much more stable and I was able with much effort, furl the Genoa. Once the Genoa was furled, I was fully in control and started to head back to the marina. On the way back, this 15-20 minute high wind condition, subsided and I was able to lower my main. I came back into my slip in relatively calm conditions (5-10kt winds) and although I was thoroughly drenched and worn out, including ripped skin on my fingers, it was like nothing ever happened and a nice peaceful day.

So, the key for me was starting the outboard and heading into the wind.

Edited by - OLarryR on 08/31/2012 09:15:29

mowrangler
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 09:44:43

Thanks for your thoughts. Heading for the sand was probably the biggest issue I was questioning after the fact. It all happened fast enough that I was more focused on getting the sails down rather than steering the boat...

My other concern with letting the sails loose was the fact that the standing rigging is swept back, and I think I am probably fortunate that I didn't get my sail tore up. Of course, I didn't look it over all that well as I was struggling to get the main down, so I will probably look it over good when I head back out later this weekend.

As far as the firler goes, it is typically OK in light breeze or heading into the wind, but the little 1/4" line wasn't going to hold up in a full blow. I have heard that the ball bearing upgrade on these firlers makes a world of difference, which is why I included that as a future upgrade.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 10:16:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
So, the key for me was starting the outboard and heading into the wind.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That is what I'd do as well. Pointing into the wind, even in crazy high winds, should let you drop the sails.

I really wanted to add that experience will help you see conditions that are changing. Things don't happen suddenly and without warning. The water, clouds, wind pressure on the sails, and other environmental clues will give you some hint that this may change, and give you more time to react.

Our 3rd time out we also got stuck in some weather that we didn't expect or know how to handle. With experience I've become a lot more comfortable in these types of situations. The important thing is to think through the problem, figure out how you might handle it in the future, and also to push yourself slowly into more difficult situations to work your way up to challenging sailing conditions.

alex

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 10:16:11

Never call in a mayday unless it is life threatening. Pan Pan is more appropriate. Also, since you were so honest and already beat yourself up, I won't harsh, but NEVER run aground unless you are ready to lose the boat and declare a mayday. Land or any facsimile thereof is your mortal enemy.

These boats, while seaworthy overall are dangerous in rough conditions. I'll never go back, and if I do, only in fair weather.

What to do? Hell, dunno... Too late by then... You did alright. Let everything flop around and get the motor running first would have been my choice. With the motor in gear headed into the wind and lines led aft, you could have dropped sails and really not had much of a story to tell.

I know. Broken record. Lazy jacks, lines aft is not an option. Upgrade today!

Sten

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 10:59:30

Getting pinned down with your shorts down happens... Key is to deal with it as best you can... All in all sounds like you did just fine.

In the same situation again, my bet is you won't let it happen again, save for perhaps a pop-up t-storm. I'd say first reaction would be to let it all flop. Struggle to get the motor going, and get head to wind. Get the sails down then full on head to wind. Let's assume that goes OK... and you aren't making much headway, but you got your sails down... now you should likely head toward deeper water. Got an anchor? scope the heck out of it, and ride it out if you think it's gonna last a bit.

Ok, so lets say you're pinned over 35+ degrees, can't get head up to wind, can't drop sails. Slowly sheet the jib back in... I know, it'll hold you down (more heel), BUT, it'll get you moving forward again (somewhat). It'll only do that if you can keep board down (keel). Once you are moving a bit, you'll have about 15 seconds or so, to head to wind, and try to get that main down (or jib).. I'd prefer a little jib for steerin, so my first ditch would be main, but you got what you got keep the sail you know works best alone. Sounds like you have a furler, that's sticky... best get that fixed, because, it could have kept you sailing along on VERY shortened headsail. With reefed main and still way overpowered, sheet the heck out of the main, hard on the vang, and ride it a bit (get your weight on the rail, close hatchboards if you can)... again assuming you can't get that motor started (frankly motoring into the wind is the best way to get them sails down). I am betting more sail control and she wouldn't have heeled much more but at least you'd have had more control of it. Just a guess.

Hindsight is 20/20, so take this with a grain of salt. I wasn't there.

Best thing you can do though is to push it a bit in heavier air working your way up to winds like that. At least until you KNOW how the boat will react and how to handle it, if it appears out of nowhere like that again (and it will).

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 11:16:12

EDIT: I am assuming here that you were in good water when this started - not skimming the shore, but out a safe distance. END EDIT

I guess I am going against what some folks have said. Were this me (and it has been) I would have pinched up to the wind, hauled in that big mutha of a sail to close hauled, and then flop the boat over into a hove-to position while I changed my shorts and put together a game plan.

Hove-to you can sit for a few minutes and sort out your drift pattern and what the wind is doing. Then if I was convinced that I was headed for the shore, I would toss out an anchor, furl in the headsail, drop the main and brew some tea, or find a book.

From a hove-to position, you can easily sail off into a close-hauled course by waiting for the boat to rock back onto the main, and then tacking over teh jib. Now you can sail away back to teh marina and tell your friends all about your adventure.

I keep preaching about using the hove-to position on here, and I use it a lot. For me its one of the best tools in my sailing bag, whether for racing, emergencies, or just a quick lunch break.

Here is an interesting video on using the rig in a storm to calm down the boat (5 minute video) http://www.5min.com/Video/How-to-Balance-the-Rig-While-Hove-To--Storm-Tactics-228512645

Edited by - Prospector on 08/31/2012 11:26:25

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 11:58:10

Chris may be right about heaving-to. There are some big BUTS with that.

But #1 -- Know how to do it before you have to do it. It is easy to do but not quite as easy as it is to describe. It's an important tool to have in your bag though.

But #2 -- Be sure you have enough space between where you are and the lee shore. When you Heave-to, the boat will continue to move to leeward. The faster the wind, the faster the move to leeward. As Sten and I said above, dirt is not your friend.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 13:02:09

Sounds like you did OK and were able to get yourself out of the jam eventually. As pilots say, any landing you walk away from was a good one.

I'd agree with Chris & John, when you're hove to, you give yourself some time to think while the boat isn't going crazy around you. Yes, you're still moving toward the lee shore, but at a relatively slow pace. You've got time to get your engine down & started which will then allow you to weathervane the boat and get your sails down, or from being hove to, you can shorten sail pretty easily and carry on, or as Chris suggested drop your anchor, get your sails down and ride it out if it looks like it's going to be a while.

Beaching the boat would have been one of my last choices, nothing good can happen there unless you're in such dire straits that you need to abandon the boat (and expect to lose it as Sten pointed out). I've beached one sail boat on purpose, but it was a catamaran with kick up rudders that I'd forgotten to put the drain plugs in. Beaching it was the only way I kept it from sinking. With a swing keel you've got a bit more leeway in skinny water, but rather than beaching, I'd have dropped an anchor (or two) instead to keep the boat off the lee shore. With my wing keel, not much of an option unless I knew it was low tide so the incoming tide would lift me, but it would still be very-very far down on my list of options. I'd much rather be out on the water where you have more options for more control of the situation.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 13:27:42

Based on my understanding of the situation, I'd have lowered the sails and set the anchor and waited for the wind to abate. Once the sails are down, the boat's motion should settle down, and the boat should be able to ride out almost any ordinary storm on an adequate anchor and chain.

If, however, the boat was heeled so severely that you weren't able to get to the foredeck to get the sails down or lower the anchor, then I'd say you did the best you were able to do under the circumstances. If there was any way I could have prevented the boat from beaching, I would have done it. If it was firmly deposited on the beach, it might have taken heavy equipment to re-float it, or the hull might have been cracked.

Heaving to is ok if you have sea room, but it sounds as if you were already too close to shore for heaving to to be much help.

Nobody got hurt and nothing was damaged. I'd call that a success.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 08/31/2012 13:29:30

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 14:34:21

OK so here's the parts I need more info on...

How much sea room did you have? you say that "eventually you reached teh sandbar" - how long was "eventually" If it was more than 5 minutes, I'd say you had some sea room to work with.

The other thing is that you said you released the sheets... which ones? 'cause if you let the main fly and it was still filling with air, I'm not sure that I understand your situation. If you only released the jib, then everything falls into place for me.

I have let fly with both sails before and although the wind, waves and noise were unnerving, I wasn't heeling, and the boat did settle down a bunch. The biggest event along those lines was when I was a new owner sailing to a regatta with my wife and newborn aboard. We did all the wrong things, but survived to tell the tale. She doesn't sail anymore.

Edited by - on

mowrangler
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 17:52:06

I'll try to answer most of the thoughts in one post...

I was already in the beach before I could get up front to even drop the main, probably less than 30 seconds from start to finish. That pretty much left the anchor out of the equation. I did drop the motor in the water but didn't get it started and I am not sure it would have helped anyway. I was getting close to jibing when the gale hit, so I would estimate about 100 yards from the leeward shore. I released both the main and both jibs but it was still heeling, which is why I think it was probably hitting the swept back shrouds.

Sounds like the general consensus is that I should have tried to keep it in the water, which I also felt in retrospective. Of the things I feel I had enough time to do differently that is the main one. Hoving to is another thing that is on my list of stuff to practice, regardless of whether or not it would have been possible in this case.

Any way we look at it, I just need to get back on "the horse" and hopefully the weather will cooperate on Monday. :-)

On edit - when I think about the timing of it all, not turning upwind after loosing the sails is the one decision I remember expressly making in the short time I had. Part of my objective in asking this question was to determine if I need to alter my conscious decisions, but there are also reactions that become engrained as you repeatedly sail. I hope to improve both. :-)

Edited by - mowrangler on 08/31/2012 18:04:44

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 18:21:58

I don't have time to write out my own similar experience with a cloudless front catching me by surprise (FYI, I did manage to get pointed into the wind), but I do want to say that without turning into the wind it's "game over." In conditions like you describe you'll never get the main down unless you're pointed into the wind. The friction in the slugs will be too much. So don't even think of going forward (to drop the main) until you're pointed into the wind. Going into the wind can involve some harrowing moments if you have to go broach on the way to turning into the wind. But you really have to do it or you have no way to drop the sails and/or reduce sail area.

We did the ball bearing upgrade on our FF4 last year. It helps, but it only reduces the dynamic friction. In a hard blow you still have the static tension of the wind blowing on the genoa, and ball bearings will not help that. It is critical to have your furler line feed perpendicular to the drum to ensure it does not bind on the edge of the drum, and you also want to have a little tension on the furling line when you unfurl your sail. If the line spools too loosely on the drum, it could bind, and also could "dig in" under heavy tension when you try to furl in a hard blow.

Leading your main halyard and reefs back to the cockpit should be at the top of your list of upgrades.

I'm not sure that you should ever fully release the sheets with a modified B&R rig. I can imagine that a hard blow forward on the sail could really endanger your rig, though I've never actually heard of this happening.

Edited by - TakeFive on 08/31/2012 18:23:19

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 18:58:00

I would ask how many reefs do you have in the mainsail. I have two and usually start out with both reefs in. Get your lines back to the cockpit. Main sail raised and lowered with bow into the wind. Unless I'm racing or playing tag team my motor is in the water ready to use. I would also be curious as to the rudder installed. I have an oversized after market rudder, big difference in boat handling. My s/n is C 250 s/n 89. I am very cautious about beaching my boat knowing how vulnerable that centerboard is. I understand your plight but get back on that horse. JMTCW

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 19:15:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mowrangler
 I was already in the beach before I could get up front to even drop the main, probably less than 30 seconds from start to finish. That pretty much left the anchor out of the equation. I did drop the motor in the water but didn't get it started and I am not sure it would have helped anyway. I was getting close to jibing when the gale hit, so I would estimate about 100 yards from the leeward shore. I released both the main and both jibs but it was still heeling, which is why I think it was probably hitting the swept back shrouds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sounds like the lesson is learned then - your deep water is an insurance policy, sailing along a lee shore is dangerous. 'nuff said.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 20:22:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mowrangler
 
I was getting close to jibing when the gale hit, so I would estimate about 100 yards from the leeward shore. I released both the main and both jibs but it was still heeling, which is why I think it was probably hitting the swept back shrouds.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think an important lesson here is that you hae to be aware of the lee shore. 100 yards from a lee shore is just to dang close in 15 knot winds.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 08/31/2012 : 20:32:26

Like Bear mentioned, we also keep out OB in the water and down. I don't want Rita to have to try to figure out how to tilt the engine back into the water, then lower the mount. And in the couple of instances where we've needed it, I was glad it was ready to go. I'm willing to give up the half knot or so it might cost us to have the outboard ready to go at an instant's notice.

If your whole episode was over in about 30 seconds, I'd say you did rather well. Again, nobody was hurt, the boat was in one piece at the other end of it, and you learned some new stuff, that's a success in my book.

Get your furler sorted out, and get back out on the water. Don't let it loom on you or it gets harder to get back on the horse.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/01/2012 : 09:11:45

Hitting a "sand bar" with a centerboard boat might seem fairly benign, but it raises the possibility of a few problems:

1. The sand bar might not be just sand.

2. Even on a small lake, the centerboard could be substantially stressed as the boat slides sideways and any waves move it around. This could even damage the hull.

3. If the wind pushes you onto the bar (sails up), the boat might turn so you won't be able to luff the main enough to allow you to get it down. (Fortunately, a roller-furler should be able to roll up a filled sail.) Gusts might then drive you harder aground and exacerbate the damage.

As Sten says, "land is your enemy." Fortunately, you came out OK this time, but I would suggest for the future, as a novice sailor, (1) dump the jib (release the sheet, which should have a stopper knot that catches in the cleat), (2) ease the main and use it to feather up toward the wind, (3) release the mainsheet and start the engine, (4)use the engine to hold yourself head-to-wind until the worst blows over while you tighten the mainsheet to stabilized the boom, (5) with the boat steadied and away from danger, plan your approach to getting the jib rolled up, the main down, and yourself safely home.

I suspect "heaving to" wouldn't have been an option. First, you were probably too close to that lee sand-bar, and second, heaving too with full sails does not solve your problem of getting knocked down by big gusts while you try to "tune" the sails. It's a useful skill to have, although probably of rather limited use on a small or narrow lake.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/01/2012 09:22:12

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 09/01/2012 : 19:18:15

Loosened sheets, luffing sails, and the boat still heeled 45 degrees? I'd say your winds were well north of 25 knots!

Edited by - on

Voyager
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5429 Posts

Response Posted - 09/02/2012 : 07:46:49

Some time ago was in threatening weather coming back into the river under engine power while I was preparing to douse the sails. The channel is about 200 yards wide and I was center right of the channel. A BIG starboard side-on gust (T'storm outflow) heeled us over most of the way and turned Passage toward a rocky sandbar to our port. Had it not been for the downhaul line on the mainsail and releasing the jib sheets and hastily furling the jib (run into the cockpit by the DPO) we would have been on the rocks, I am certain.
Sometimes you have time and options, and plenty of water. Other times due to the nature of channels and passages you don't. As Skipper you have to assess the risks regarding what you can reasonably expect (the gust was not totally unexpected, but in my case it's direction was). And you have to take reasonable precautions (should I have stayed out in the Sound with more sea room until the storm passed?)
As was said it's easy to be a "Monday morning quarterback" and say what shoulda, coulda, woulda but when something like this happens, you use your best judgment (or you could just freak out) and take the steps you think will minimize harm to people, try to keep the boat intact and if stuff happens that's why you have insurance.
We try to avoid stupid mistakes (like the Chicago Mackinac or San Fran disasters), but sometimes we can't beat the reasonable odds. That's why we go out - keeps life interesting.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 09/02/2012 : 16:41:42

I am concerned about the practice of releasing the mainsheet on a C250 because of potential failure of the rig if the boom and mainsail are allowed to move too far forward against the swept-back spreader and lower shroud. Since this issue is specific to the C250, I have created a new topic [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25653"]here[/url].

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 09/02/2012 : 21:15:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 I am concerned about the practice of releasing the mainsheet on a C250 because of potential failure of the rig if the boom and mainsail are allowed to move too far forward against the swept-back spreader and lower shroud. Since this issue is specific to the C250, I have created a new topic [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25653"]here[/url].
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Sell it!

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2012 : 06:04:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 
Sell it!

Ralph Nader it! Unsafe a higher wind speeds... Sorry, I will never be a fan of any rig sans backstay. I can hear it now, "I ran up on the rocks because I was afraid the rig was gonna come down!"

I'm Sten and I approved this warning message...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
It's not really cool to dump on other people's boats. There are a lot of C250 owners here who might have a different opinion, especially since the C250 DOES have a backstay. In fact, you can clearly see it passing through my bimini in my signature pic. I suspect that you were intending to be funny, but jokes at others' expense are always risky territory, especially when the target is items that we pour a lot of money and sweat equity into. You've made many helpful contributions to this forum, so I know you are capable of much better.

Also, realize that releasing a highly tensioned mainsheet on a C25 (or any traditional rig) with a hard blow off the stern could cause the boom to go forward far enough and with such force that it could also strike the shrouds, just a few degrees further forward than on a C250. I'm not sure if this would be enough to damage the rig - that's kind of what I was asking about. A true B&R rig is swept back 30 degrees, but the C250 is much less than that, and has a backstay. That's why it's called a modified B&R rig.

Edited by - TakeFive on 09/03/2012 08:13:05

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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9089 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2012 : 10:59:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 ...A true B&R rig is swept back 30 degrees, but the C250 is much less than that, and has a backstay. That's why it's called a modified B&R rig.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think the C-250 rig is more than a "modified" B&R--it's a non-B&R rig. The B&R rig is more than just swept-back spreaders. It is a variation of the fractional rig, specifically designed to impart prebend without a backstay, using not just swept-back spreaders, but also diagonals from the spreaders down to the mast to help push the spreader bases (and the mast) forward. Many boats have fractional rigs with swept back spreaders that are not B&R rigs, because they use a backstay for bend. The mast-head C-250 rig is even more not a B&R, and I have never heard Catalina refer to any boat it built as having one--modified or otherwise. Calling it that suggests you're in the family with Hunter... I don't think I'd do that.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/03/2012 11:07:40

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