Association Forum - What an evening...

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

General Sailing Forum

What an evening...

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2012 : 11:31:50

Good point. Not sure where I first saw it referred to as modified B&R. I thought it was here.

Edited by - on

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 09/03/2012 : 15:44:37

As you noted it is a good idea to move all controls to the cockpit including the reefing (I recommend two-line reefing). Moving your jib sheets back to the coaming also puts them in position for quick access. The ball bearings in the furler are very nice, and I recommend them, but they wont help much when the jib is under pressure.

I also agree with your assessment about predicted gusts. In those conditions I would start off with a reef in and the jib furled in a bit. You can always increase sail later but reducing sail is tough once you realize you are overpowered - especially if you are by yourself. We often start out reefed. We have also been known to sail without the jib deployed in heavy winds.

Good for you having your PFD on. In the end the boat is easily replaced but the people on it are not.

Thank the lady who called 911. You ended up not needing it but it was very gracious of her to call.

Edited by - Nautiduck on 09/03/2012 15:46:30

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 07:31:26

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, and I know this was not an option for this particular situation as you were too close to land, is that sometimes the best option is to fall off and run down wind and get things sorted out, like for example rolling up your head sail which helps you reduce sail area and takes pressure off your rig. Once the head sail is rolled up to a manageable size and things are calmer going downwind you can get your motor started and get the main down. I've used this option a couple times when I had the room to do it and it helped de-escalate the situation and gave me time to think about the next step. Something to think about if you're further from shore. I have a fin keel so beaching is never an option for me.

I am not a fan of letting the sails flog as you can destroy them pretty quickly so unless I am in danger I will try to avoid that by running down wind if I have the room, heaving too etc. My roller furling is always a bitch to roll up but I have never had a problem reducing the head sail even when it was loaded in heavy wind. You sheet out a bit, head sail starts luffing, roll in, repeat process until you have enough rolled up. In your case I might have let the main sheet out and luff, roll up enough head sail to get under control and use the head sail to get away from the shore while leaving the main bubbling and luffing. Most heel comes from the main and I know that most Catalina's sail very well head sail alone so use that to get some sea room might have been viable. Then at the first opportunity you can take the main down and sail with a blade of a head sail.

Running all your lines aft is not a big deal, makes sailing so much easier and safer and can save your life. A couple blocks, fair leads and a deck organizer is typically all it takes. This would be the first thing I would do if I were you.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 08:51:35

Peter,

I think going the route you suggest has to do with just what sort of high winds you are dealing with as the Genoa may not be able to be rolled up unless first starting the outboard and heading into the wind. I know when I was in this stuation about 1 1/2 months ago, the winds were so great, if the sails ripped that would have been the least of my issues. I thought I was going to die !! The boat was heeled over in danger of capsizing and sails were flapping. There was no way after trying a few times to furl the Genoa. It was quite a struggle just finding the opportunity to try and furl it and turned out to be a lost cause since even with the sail flapping, there was way too much resistance on the rigging. If I was heading driectly into the wind, then I would have had a chance to furl it but I could not and I was trying to maintain some forward speed which was just to maintain the slimmest control of the boat - I was sliding sideways faster than going forward. As it was, the only thing that saved me after trying unsuccessfully to gain control was to jibe and risk the standing rigging coming down because I knew when I was to do it, the boom was going to swing over with tremendous force. I had no choice but to jibe since I was running out out of river water drifting over to the Bolling Air Force base side of the river. But that was what eventually allowed me to fool around with the outboard. I had to first gain deeper water when I came about and then even with the sails flapping, I was continually tipping greatly over to leeward with the rail threatening to go in several times. Only after I let the sheets out a bit more losing all control of any foward movement, could I right the boat enough to get the outboard down and in water enough to propel it forward. Once that was accomplished...things greatly improved. As I was able to steer into the wind, it was then a question if I could roll up my Genoa, the sheets now being a tangled mess. But that went smoothly ! Key was getting into the wind using the outboard and then I was in control once again. Once the Genoa was furled, I still had to deal with the wind and waves (in the river) but it was quite manageable.

I failed to mention in previous posting(s) that when I was going thru this ordeal and as I was heading once again into the center of the river, I was aware of a big motorboat/yacht that basically steered way clear of me out, altering is course significantly out of the channel as he saw me still trying to gain control. Thank goodness he gave me a wide berth since there was nothing I could do until my outboard started.

I also had my auto-inflate PFD on...and you can bet I was thinking about it for a moment or two...if I would have to actually rely on it.

(The weather this summer has been very unpredicatable and I am more than superstitious these days whenever I see even a small dark cloud.)

Edited by - OLarryR on 09/04/2012 08:56:34

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 10:08:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 ...A true B&R rig is swept back 30 degrees, but the C250 is much less than that, and has a backstay. That's why it's called a modified B&R rig.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I think the C-250 rig is more than a "modified" B&R--it's a non-B&R rig. The B&R rig is more than just swept-back spreaders. It is a variation of the fractional rig, specifically designed to impart prebend without a backstay, using not just swept-back spreaders, but also diagonals from the spreaders down to the mast to help push the spreader bases (and the mast) forward. Many boats have fractional rigs with swept back spreaders that are not B&R rigs, because they use a backstay for bend. The mast-head C-250 rig is even more not a B&R, and I have never heard Catalina refer to any boat it built as having one--modified or otherwise. Calling it that suggests you're in the family with Hunter... I don't think I'd do that.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

My point exactly! Sorry, I did see your backstay, so I concur... Sorta.... While my response was cheeky, I do not like b and r rigs... Friends don't let friends buy Hunters for that reason. As for the 250 configuration, anyone want to tell me why it is an improvement? BTW, I wish I had that Corvair I had as a kid, I still wouldn't want to drive it...

Enjoy whatever you drive/sail. Just understand the limitations and respect better designs...

Sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 10:16:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...As it was, the only thing that saved me after trying unsuccessfully to gain control was to jibe and risk the standing rigging coming down because I knew when I was to do it, the boom was going to swing over with tremendous force. I had no choice but to jibe...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Note to novices (not Larry): When you jibe in heavy air (not generally recommended), haul in the mainsheet as tightly as you can as you turn away from the wind. The less the boom can swing when the wind catches the other side of the sail, the less momentum there will be. This also helps to prevent a "goose-wing jibe" where the sail lifts the boom and it hits the backstay, which either prevents the boom from crossing or takes down the mast. In addition, with the main sheeted in and the wind behind you, the pressure on the sail is less than with the boom out. You can then decide when and how much you want to ease the sheet to accelerate the boat down-wind or onto a reach. Just keep your head down in case you get another surprise jibe.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 10:25:40

Letting the boom hit the rigging is just not an option. On my C&C39, the boom is almost the size of a telephone pole. But like it tell people with in mast systems, stab it with a knife and watch it shred when all Hell breaks loose.

Sten

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 14:24:09

Edited by - on

PCP777
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1225 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 14:48:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...As it was, the only thing that saved me after trying unsuccessfully to gain control was to jibe and risk the standing rigging coming down because I knew when I was to do it, the boom was going to swing over with tremendous force. I had no choice but to jibe...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Note to novices (not Larry): When you jibe in heavy air (not generally recommended), haul in the mainsheet as tightly as you can as you turn away from the wind. The less the boom can swing when the wind catches the other side of the sail, the less momentum there will be. This also helps to prevent a "goose-wing jibe" where the sail lifts the boom and it hits the backstay, which either prevents the boom from crossing or takes down the mast. In addition, with the main sheeted in and the wind behind you, the pressure on the sail is less than with the boom out. You can then decide when and how much you want to ease the sheet to accelerate the boat down-wind or onto a reach. Just keep your head down in case you get another surprise jibe.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I was going to mention this, I always sheet in and then sheet out with a jibe. As you observe, keep it sheeted in when going off the wind is another good way to depower the main. You can also use the main to help cover the head sail which can help you get it furled.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 15:29:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I was going to mention this, I always sheet in and then sheet out with a jibe...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is basic ASA 101 jibing method, isn't it? Even a novice should know this. If he doesn't, he learns it real quick "the hard way."

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 18:32:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking...BTW, I wish I had that Corvair I had as a kid, I still wouldn't want to drive it...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Well, I still think that it's a cheap shot to dump on other people's boats by making comparisons like this. What data do you have that shows that a B&R rig is more likely to come down than a traditional rig? Since Hunter has made thousands of boats, there must plenty of data to do statistics. I know the rig is vastly different from traditional rigs, but where is the data to show that it is a problem? This one certainly seemed to endure some abusive conditions without the rig failing:
<center>

</center>
I realize that this is just one example, so I'd be happy to hear other examples (or engineering calculations, since I believe in that kind of stuff) to demonstrate that a B&R rig is a danger and/or cannot handle the stresses of coastal sailing.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 ...As for the 250 configuration, anyone want to tell me why it is an improvement?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There have been a few things that I liked about not having forward lowers. Since I sail in a river, I do a lot of tacking, and not having the forward lowers allows the sail to pass from side to side very easily without fouling or chafing. For me this is a big plus on the river. For trailer sailors, the rig is easier to drop since you only need to detach the forestay, and can merely loosen the shrouds and backstay. Others have cited tighter sheeting angles.

I'm not going to try to list the negatives because if I miss just one I feel like you'll jump all over me. Suffice it to say that every design is a tradeoff, and the C250's design tends to favor comfort and convenience over performance. Other C250 owners can jump in with their own comments. I've seen no sign that the boat is any more dangerous in protected waters than other similarly sized production boats. Once again, if you have statistics to prove otherwise, let's see them.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 09/04/2012 : 20:51:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by PCP777
 I was going to mention this, I always sheet in and then sheet out with a jibe...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is basic ASA 101 jibing method, isn't it? Even a novice should know this. If he doesn't, he learns it real quick "the hard way."

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Well, assuming everyone hasn't gone through ASA 101, and assuming that some of our newer sailors might find themselves in a situation where the best way out is to turn away from rather than into the wind, I posted that suggestion here, hoping to avoid some "hard ways."

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/04/2012 20:52:55

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2272 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 03:54:01

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 Well, assuming everyone hasn't gone through ASA 101, and assuming that some of our newer sailors might find themselves in a situation where the best way out is to turn away from rather than into the wind, I posted that suggestion here, hoping to avoid some "hard ways."

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes, it was a good point. I shouldn't have posted that comment.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3477 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 04:09:28

Interesting topic in that it has drawn a number of side discussions that could be explored separately for example the discussion of which boat is better and just how everyone performs a jibe. These side discussions are not limited to extreme wind conditions, actually there is much to learn about handling in all normal type conditions.

As far as new vs old boat designs or one mfr vs another....there are many attributes for each boat. There are individual likes/dislikes based on cosmetics, performance, seaworthiness depending on what seas you sail in, portability, etc, etc. Which boat is better is actually not a great topic - Too many variables and probably what I would appreciate another would not and vice versa. But we can all agree that we like Catalinas !! (Not that there is anything wrong with a Hunter !) LOL

In regards to jibing, as was indicated: sheet in and then out out as the boom crosses the cockpit. But I oftentimes like to sheet in only a bit and then grasp the lines in my hand and then stretch my arm downwards taking up the slack as the boom crosses the cockpit, then raising my arm letting the slack pay out as the main catches the wind. I find this easier and more efficient than pulling the sheet all the way in. In windy conditions, I would rely more on the blocks for pulling in the sheet and letting it out. It is very rare to be caught with extremely high wind conditions (well above 30mph). In those conditions and I have experience only one time, it is easier said than done to do anything regarding pulling in the sheet to any great extent before it whips to the other side. So...then what to do ...perhaps only way to minimize the impact is to steer quickly into the jibe to provide more room for the boom to swing to leeward...also having the vang tight will prevent any concerns regarding the boom lifting and hitting the backstay, though, I did not know that was possible ? I guess I should check that out for those instances when I would have the vang loose allowing the boom to rise. The issue I was facing recently was that my arms were already tired and found that wearing the sailing gloves with the half fingers did not offer the protection under the knuckle area. My skin was already ripped off of fingers on both hands before I performed the jibe. I have since bought almost full finger gloves...but I like the half finger ones....So... a continuing dilemma. My vang was fairly tight...so no problem with boom lifting.

In regards to the stays holding up...I know that was my concern but they held up fine. While one would think that the stays on an old rig would be weak and at risk, that is not always true, though, best to change out old standing rigging and that is on my future to do list. BUt this reminds me of that guy many years ago that suffered an accident to his believe '84 Cat when they were lifting it up off of blocks and the boat slipped in the belts with the front stay hitting the travel arm. You remember that photo he posted - The front stay ripped up one foot of the deck at the bow !!! Wow !!! Who would have thought ?

Edited by - OLarryR on 09/05/2012 04:14:28

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 05:49:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OLarryR
 ...BUt this reminds me of that guy many years ago that suffered an accident to his believe '84 Cat when they were lifting it up off of blocks and the boat slipped in the belts with the front stay hitting the travel arm. You remember that photo he posted - The front stay ripped up one foot of the deck at the bow !!!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I remember that... I suspect the boat was older than '84--I know by 1985 Catalina had upgraded the stem fitting by adding a tang that goes down the bow and is thru-bolted to see it. (Owners of older boats can click on my signature picture below to see it.) I don't think '85 was the first year for the upgrade, but don't know which year was. Catalina Direct now sells that stem.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/05/2012 05:54:50

Nautiduck
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3704 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 08:42:19

I think I will go with Gerry Douglas and Frank Butler, over anyone on this forum, when it comes to sailboat design and construction.

This is a site for owners and enthusiasts of 25' Catalina sailboats.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 13:25:43

...with regard to what?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 09/05/2012 : 13:46:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 ...What data do you have that shows that a B&R rig is more likely to come down than a traditional rig? Since Hunter has made thousands of boats, there must plenty of data to do statistics. I know the rig is vastly different from traditional rigs, but where is the data to show that it is a problem?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've probably reported my anecdotal evidence here--the time I watched B&R rig crash down on a H-240 when it apparently snagged a shroud on a piling as it backed out of its slip. Would a proper backstay have kept the mast up? I can't say. Did the B&R design contribute to the failure? For one, it did by being so "wide", with the chainplates on the gunwales, that the shroud caught the piling--that's a characteristic of most B&Rs to offset the lack of the backstay. Virtually all B&R Hunters have the main chainplates bolted to the topsides. It also didn't help that the H-240 mast extrusion is sorta like a Coors can, as I found out when I helped the people unrig the thing and get it up on the boat. It folded up amazingly easily!

BTW, did you know Hunter is in bankruptcy, and is apparently being bought by Marlow, who builds yachts in China?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/05/2012 13:58:53

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.