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The Scoop on Poop in the Florida Keys

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britinusa
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Initially Posted - 09/09/2012 : 10:05:33

This is a subject that hits the headlines down here regularly.

We do most of our sailing in the Keys albeit in Miami Dade County, but it's barely a couple of hours sailing south before we hit the area of concern.

Here's a couple of links to the latest Monroe County Ordinance on anchoring and pumpouts.

http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2010/20101129_floridakeys.html

http://www.monroecounty-fl.gov/DocumentCenter/Home/View/4039

Joint Decision. (Sold)
PO C250WB 2005 Sail # 841.

Moved up to C34 Eximius

Updated August 2015

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 11:31:53

The second document sounds like a business opportunity for someone. If the boat's sewage has to be pumped every ten days and a sticker affixed every month, seems like an enterprising individual could make the rounds in pump-out boat so the not quite derelict boats with liveaboards could stay in compliance without having to go to the pumpout stations themselves.

Didn't you fairly recently get a larger capacity porta-potti?

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 11:52:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 seems like an enterprising individual could make the rounds in pump-out boat so the not quite derelict boats with liveaboards could stay in compliance without having to go to the pumpout stations themselves.

Didn't you fairly recently get a larger capacity porta-potti?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

There are plenty of mobile pumpout boats down there, (at least it seemed that we saw one at every anchorage) So it would be pretty easy for them to do as you suggest.

However, most of the 'pre derelict' boats are already abandoned, they will automatically be declared as derelict with so many months.

Our understanding is that we can discharge grey water, but hate doing so. So heavy is the guilt feeling that we are seriously considering adding grey water storage to JD. We figure that if we were to hold 5 to 10 gallons of grey water, it would not take up much space, but it's finding the space that is the trick.

Paul

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 12:08:58

Looks like composting toilet sales will get a boost.

After looking at the two major brands, they seem like an actual better solution than needing a pump out.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 15:25:05

Is pumping out really that bad? We haven't found it hard to find a pump out station and it only takes a few minutes. It's a little gross, but a lot better than polluting the waters.

The 14 gallon standard holding tank on a C-25 does fill up surprisingly quickly.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 15:37:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Is pumping out really that bad<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No, but the FWC will ask to see proof that the boat has been pumped out within the last 10 days. Meaning you couldn't go offshore and macerate. It seems that you would be forced to pay for a pump out. A composting toilet would make you exempt.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 16:17:02

To be more to the point, this article came up in the June 2012 issue of Southwinds magazine. It's long, but you will see the extent of the the bias against boaters.

A KANGAROO COURT IN THE KEYS?
The FWC boarded me back in October and issued me a
MSD-related citation and I went to court pro se (representing
oneself) on Dec. 2, 2011 (State v. Neal Warren, 11-INLETTERS
“Freedom of the press is limited to those who own one.”
A.J. Liebling

Plantation Key Courthouse, Judge Albury presiding).
I pled not guilty and managed to prevail. I’m attempting
to allow interested folks who might be ticketed by bullying
FWC officers to get some insight into their dubious
tactics, which included the following:
• Cite you for one paragraph of the statute [327.53(1)], and
then on the court date, amend it to another paragraph
[327.53(2)], hoping you aren’t prepared for it.
• Hope you have to take a continuance because of the
amended charge you aren’t prepared to litigate and hope
you won’t bother fighting any longer especially if you are
cruising out of the area soon.
• After being granted the amended charge [327.53(2)] by the
judge—because I said I was prepared to defend against the
amended charge—then attempt to bring up another paragraph
of the statutes that he did not specify in the amendment
[327.53(5)]—a clear violation of due process rights.
• Then hand the court a cropped version of the Code of
Federal Regulations to which that sub paragraph (5) refers,
which cropped version conveniently leaves out half the CFR
that proves your vessel is in compliance. (To Judge Albury’s
credit, he pretty much ignored this and later rebuked the
officer by saying he couldn’t even consider subparagraph 5
because it would involve due process issues.)
• When the state failed to prevail on its trickery, it then went
back to the “original” sub paragraph (1) and pursued that,
even though it said it was amending the charges to sub
paragraph (2) because it wrote the wrong sub-paragraph (1)
number on the citation.
• Then go off on a tangent and attempt to prosecute on personal
hygiene habits when the statute in question is only
about vessel waste equipment requirements.
• Attempt to redefine what a houseboat is [327.02(13)] by
conveniently leaving out the part after the “and” that says
to be a houseboat, it must be lived aboard for a minimum of
21 days per month “AND” said vessel must have some condition
that “precludes” its use as a means of transportation.
Then the judge asks for a dictionary to look up the definition
of “preclude” even after I stated the definition.
(Preclude: to prevent or make impossible.)
• Then the judge begrudgingly admitting he had to find me
not guilty but suggesting that the FWC/state should try to
get the statutory definition of “houseboat” changed by
eliminating the part about any condition that precludes its
use as a means of transportation.
It all smacks of a kangaroo court.
Capt. Neal Warren
Florida Keys

Neal,
I would say it smacks of the Keystone cops, too. My compliments
to you for your success in standing your ground and standing up
to the FWC, who really tried to stretch the law.
I decided to listen to the official voice recording of Neal’s
court proceedings (available on the SOUTHWINDS website at the
very bottom of the page at www.southwindsmagazine.com/waterways.
php.) It went as Neal describes it above, but what amazed me
was the judge’s lack of knowledge about boat waste. I understand
how a judge must decide issues in thousands of cases—and how
difficult that is—but he knew nothing about marine sanitation
devices (MSDs) and No-Discharge Zones (NDZs).
The judge didn’t know what a Type I, II or III MSD was, nor
did he know what a NDZ was. From his comments—even after
Neal told him otherwise—he was under the impression that the
entire state was a NDZ, never grasping that a Type I can be discharged
in most of the state’s waters—and that it’s safe and clean.
Neal’s defense entailed stating that his Type I was not operational
because he had the overboard discharge valve locked closed. When
Neal stated that a Type I is a sewage treatment plant, the judge
interrupted him and said, “But you don’t have a sewage treatment
plant.” Neal surprised him by saying that yes he did have one.
Neal stated that while in the NDZ (in the Keys Marine
Sanctuary), he goes ashore to relieve himself. The judge said he
found it hard to believe that he went ashore every time he wanted
to relieve himself, obviously referring to urinating—something
millions of people do regularly at the beach when they swim in
Florida—which is harmless. The judge was convinced that Neal
must be opening the discharge valve when no one was looking and
using it. He treated Neal like he was immoral if he was dumping
his waste, making no distinction between urine and solid waste,
implying that one must relieve oneself several times a day.
To the judge’s credit, he agreed that the definition of “houseboat”
that the FWC was trying to stretch to their liking was
wrong, finding Neal not guilty. After the decision, a discussion
ensued among Neal, the FWC and the judge about waste. Neal
told the judge that raw sewage can be dumped outside 3-miles in
the Atlantic. The judge asked the FWC, “Is that true?” “Yes,”
said the officer. “Wow,” said the judge.
No one told the judge that cruise ships that are three miles out
can legally dump raw sewage (cruise lines have agreed, informally,
to dump outside 12 miles off Florida), and that a typical cruise ship
will dump 30,000 gallons a day of raw sewage and 360,000 gallons
a day of gray water waste in the ocean—just 12 miles off the Keys.
No one told the judge that Neal’s Type I MSD costs about
$1000 uninstalled—much more than a holding tank costs—and it
is far superior than 90 percent of the boats out there that have holding
tanks, many of which dump real raw sewage—not treated like
Neal’s—inside the 3-mile limit (6 miles in the Gulf) on a regular
basis, unseen by the police. Nor did anyone tell the judge that
municipal sewage treatment plants “accidentally” spill millions of
gallons of raw sewage into Florida waters annually, and that almost
every bit of coliform bacteria found in the Keys waters comes from
land-based spills and old, seeping cesspools and leach fields—all
located in the Keys.
During the entire proceedings, Neal was polite, informed,
calm and courteous. I can think of some people who would have
gotten down on their hands and knees and barked and growled at
the FWC officer who tried to call Neal’s 26’ 8” sailboat that he regularly
travels in, a houseboat.
Editor

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 16:35:18

Wow.

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/09/2012 : 17:33:18

I hope that the intent of the law is to preserve the water quality, and that the law will spill into the local domain to help reduce the 'accidental' release of sewage or grey water into the waters along the shores of the Keys and elsewhere.

(And not with the intent of promoting city coffer development by ticketing inappropriately)

Still, I really would like to avoid grey water discharge anywhere! We have used a pump out station to empty our PP which now has a 5gallon capacity.

Paul

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 00:19:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I hope that the intent of the law is to preserve the water quality<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Unfortunately it is not.

I have been to two of the proposed anchoring meetings put on by the FWC for the anchoring ordinance in St Petersburg and similar locations like the one for Monroe County.

It is clear that the municipalities want to get rid of derelict vessels. However, they also want a tool to use to chase off boaters who are living on their boats or anchoring in places that the municipality does not want them to be.

They also want to craft laws to prevent boat owners from anchoring their boats out, to avoid having to pay dockage fees.

The problem will be, when you take your week long trip to the Keys, a FWC officer is likely to pull up to you and ask to see proof that your boat has been pumped out, even though your boat has been parked next to your house since your last cruise.

Edited by - Davy J on 09/10/2012 05:14:54

britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 03:28:46

How do I become Certified to issue Pumpout Receipts?

Paul

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 05:04:00

This is as a cruiser, a subject that is very near and dear to my er, well you know. I have an electrosan which negates all of the hazardous portions of discharge and is legal except in zero discharge zones. In terms of avoiding the ticket when you have legally discharged offshore, log just like we do for garbage and waste oil disposal the coordinates and date and time of this discharge.

Grey water. Please don't get me started. Too late. When municipalities discharge into a body of water following a storm, it is measured in millions of gallons. I only carry 90 and that including showers and dishes is good for over two weeks. As my previous owner said, "Dillution is the solution." And before anyone gets their panties in a bunch, I published the foremost resource for environmental protection companies and government agencies for 17 years.

Composting heads are cool. I may do it. But the thing nobody talks about is that urine is diverted. And typically is poured overboard. Not that different that the sport fishing crowd peeing overboard. But it is what it is.

Grey water tanks. Geez, a waste of money on a C25. Mesh bag, dishes inside. Tow it for awhile and give em a fresh water rinse. I know cruisers who use a spray bottle for water conservation purposes.

Get a grip. Whales poop in the ocean. So do I. Get over it.

Sten

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 05:14:24

Unfortunately this law has nothing to do with the water. It has to do with giving the FWC a tool to make boats keep moving. That's why it is part of an anchoring ordinance and not part of Florida boating laws in general.

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shnool
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 06:02:37

Sadly, seems this has nothing to do with anything other than, A) trying to get rid of "derelict" boats (a subjective term for sure) and B) trying to increase government coffers at the expense of "rich" boaters.

Government regulation usually does more harm than good.

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DaveR
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 06:12:50

Ahhh, good ole Government. Always trying to control and soak you for money.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 09:44:18

Derelicts are a big problem in Florida. I have no problem with any law that will rid the anchorages of them, even if it keeps the rest of us on our toes. I've had them run into me during storms and have had to rescue a couple of them when they were drunk and fell off of their boats. One guy in Gulfport FL ran aground after Debbie. Took about a hundred of us to refloat the damn thing, and I just know he will wind up on the beach again.

Sten

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 10:34:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Derelicts are a big problem in Florida. I have no problem with any law that will rid the anchorages of them, even if it keeps the rest of us on our toes. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
When I attended the public meeting for St Petersburg, it was very discouraging to see the public officials ignoring the public input on the ordinance. 98% of the people who spoke at those meetings opposed time limits for anchoring. The city did extend it's time limit but did not remove it. The derelict vessels are easy to spot because they are completely abandoned. Those are the ones that will eventually sink. Of course there are a lot of dirtbags living on boats that can't move or not capable of navigation, however, the city is using a pretty big broom to sweep out a lot of cruisers that don't want to tie up in a marina every-night. They have also prohibited all anchoring in the Vinoy basin. I can't tell you how many times I've anchored there, now just gone.....

Edited by - Davy J on 09/10/2012 10:38:40

Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 10:55:17

As for Gulfport, you can expect to see a lot more dirtbags there. Gulfport is not part of the ordinance. So you will see every derelict that gets run out of St Petersburg end up in other areas without the ordinance. Then of course those areas will want their own ordinance..... see it, freedoms being siphoned off very slowly, in the the name of good intentions.

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 15:06:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 As for Gulfport, you can expect to see a lot more dirtbags there. Gulfport is not part of the ordinance. So you will see every derelict that gets run out of St Petersburg end up in other areas without the ordinance. Then of course those areas will want their own ordinance..... see it, freedoms being siphoned off very slowly, in the the name of good intentions.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Yes, that is true. Gulfport is the new derelict haven and hardly anyone has used the Vinoy balls. There are a few boats anchored behind the Coasties in Bayboro. I recently moved to Dunedin, and there are a number of boats anchored between Clearwater pass and the Dunedin causeway. Only problem is that it is one hell of a dinghy ride to land... I agree that it is starting to suck for cruisers. In fact, I foresee the day when it will be nearly impossible.

Sten

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 16:45:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I agree that it is starting to suck for cruisers. In fact, I foresee the day when it will be nearly impossible.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I am wondering if my dream of selling my house and buying the bigger boat to sail around Florida and the Bahamas, will be just that, a dream.

This case is one to watch. The first ticket handed out in the St Augustine area has challenged the laws constitutionality.

23 July 2012

First boat to get anchoring ticket challenges St. Augustine
Reported By: Mike Ahart, News Editor (WG Staff)

NEW UPDATE: The defendant has, as expected, filed an appeal of the ruling. Read new StAugustine.com article...

The defendant's challenge on consitutional grounds was rejected by the county, according to a court document. Fines and court costs totaled $168; however, the court has agreed to waive the $128 fine if he moves his boat and stays within compliance of the code in the future. No word yet on whether MacDougall will appeal, but I'm guessing he will.

The first man to get a ticket under a new ordinance that requires boaters to pay to moor their boats in designated areas within the City of St. Augustine limits is challenging the ordinance and the city.

According to reports, Michael Douglas "Wolfy" MacDougall anchored his boat within 50 feet of a channel marker in the St. Sebastian River, which violates the new anchoring and mooring pilot program ordinance enacted in December. The fine for a first offense is $100.

MacDougall is contesting the constitutionality of the ordinance, rather than the violation itself. According to court records, the judge ordered the parties to try to settle the matter and report the settlement to the court. The next hearing is set for June 4 at 9am. Read full StAugustine.com article...

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britinusa
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 19:13:19

[url="http://staugustine.com/news/local-news/2012-07-20/sailor-appeals-ruling-he-mooring-his-boat-illegally#.UE6d_o1mTCY"]link to St Augustine Record's article about 'Wolfy'[/url]

Paul

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redviking
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Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 21:21:10

http://m.staugustine.com/news/local-news/2012-06-04/sailor-vows-fight-mooring-rule

Ah, he is still there! Geez... He is sixty now going on eighty from the looks of him. He has been there anchored for 11 years! This is what happens. The homeless, or practically homeless buy a cheap boat and often take the engine out so that the coasties classify the vessel as a barge and can't force him to move, or whatever. Then they just sit there forever and of course don't ever get a pumpout. They started with a dream, perhaps in some cases, made it to St. Augie, or wherever and that's where the money ran out for booze and they just stopped. That's not the definition of a cruiser. Here's another one.

http://gulfport.patch.com/articles/captain-jay-set-sail-gulfport#video-10956552

Sorry, I saw that boat up close and personal. Filthy, rat and roach infested POS. Dog crap everywhere. A real nuisance. The Captain is about the same age as the St. Augie guy. neither one of them are ever going anywhere. They are not sailors. Their boats haven't moved in years, and aren't going to. Neither the vessels not their owners are capable of doing much more than going to a bar and sitting there all day. Sad... But what is even more sad, is that these ass people are destroying it for the rest of us...

sten

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