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Pintle Gudgeon Slop

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hinmo
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USA
248 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/10/2012 : 03:36:12

I replaced the rudder several years back. I noticed recently, that there's significant slop in the top pintle/gudgeon. This is the original pintle/gudgeon mounted on the newer rudder. Was there a nylon spacer in the gudgeon at one point?

I imagine the slop can't be good for wear and tear.

The gudgeons don't look like they're fun to replace

"Kukla" '83 FK,SR

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 05:53:33

The original ones don't have bushings. The new ones do and have much less slop.

Replacement of the lower one is very easy. Replacement of the upper one takes about an hour and most of that time is for adding an access panel to get to the nuts on the inside of the transom. There is already an access panel for the lower one inside the quarterberth, but making the swap will require two people (one working outside, one working inside).

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JohnP
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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 06:33:29

That's right, and you can rent a hole saw from Catalina Direct along with the access panel.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 06:39:27

The original gudgeons are plenty strong IMHO--not worth upgrading with the surgery that's necessary. Measure the gudgeon hole and the pintle diameter, and find a flanged nylon bushing with an OD of the hole and an ID of the pintle. My local True Value has a pretty good selection.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">...making the swap will require two people (one working outside, one working inside).<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nah!

Hex bolts and a vice-grip will let one person tighten the nuts inside.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/10/2012 06:46:47

awetmore
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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 07:44:50

On my lower gudgeon (which hasn't been replaced yet) the gap which provides for an annoying knock of the rudder is really too small for a good bushing. I have a lathe and plenty of access to suitable materials for making a bushing, but the wall thickness of the bushing would need to be so thin that it would just tear. A bronze bushing could probably be made that would fit, but there aren't any easily available that will do the job.

The bushings available at hardware stores for 1/2" pins (the size of my pintles) will have an outside diameter of 9/16" and 5/8". Both are way too large for the original gundeons.

The original upper gudgeon on Lutra was cracked in two places and heavily ovalized. This was on a boat that didn't get a lot of use from it's previous owners, but perhaps the rudder wasn't properly lashed when it was docked. I feel much more confident with the replacement.

The play in lower one annoys me when sailing and will probably be replaced soon. It also makes it hard to sleep in the quarterberth because you can hear it knocking all night. Since Lutra's new owner (I'm upgrading) is the only one who's ever slept in the quarterberth I'm sure it'll be at the top of his project list.

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hinmo
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248 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 15:43:31

I also wonder if the looseness adds to the rudder/tiller "flutter" I get at certain speeds. If it isn't critical, I won't worry it.

And yes, I haven't slept in the boat yet, but plan to in a couple weeks, and my dog house is supposed to be in the aft cab....it is noisy

Edited by - hinmo on 09/10/2012 17:17:34

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 17:01:13

I bought nylon bushings from Lowe's that were slightly to big and sanded them down to a very snug fit. I then drilled them out to 1/2" so I would have maximum wall thickness. They've lasted 3 years so far.

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Voyager
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5379 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 19:48:08

Has anybody tried wrapping the pintles with Teflon tape? You could wrap enough around the pintles to take up the slop. My upper can use a good deal. I wonder whether the usual wear and tear would rip up the tape?

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 19:54:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Has anybody tried wrapping the pintles with Teflon tape? You could wrap enough around the pintles to take up the slop. My upper can use a good deal. I wonder whether the usual wear and tear would rip up the tape?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I think you'd have a hard time just getting it back on before it started tearing. Teflon tape has very little in the way of strength. You'd be better off with good duct tape like Gorilla tape. Machining down the OD and drilling out the ID an existing nylon or bronze bushing like Dave did would probably be a better way to go.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/10/2012 : 21:05:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Has anybody tried wrapping the pintles with Teflon tape?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Saran Wrap might be stronger!

(I think Teflon tape is for something that is screwed together once and never turns again.) Like Dave, I think I'd use a drill to ream out the hole as necessary to take an available bushing.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/10/2012 21:07:22

diySailor
1st Mate

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USA
39 Posts

Response Posted - 09/11/2012 : 18:05:20

I just repaced all pintles and gudgeons this summer and it was very easy as I had a transom inspection port directly in back of the upper gudgeon. It looked to me like the port was original to the boat. The old parts were very warn and bent. The new parts made a big difference in the tightness of the connections due to the fit of the pintles in the new bushings. It does makes a difference with the tiller pilot and is quieter.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/12/2012 : 13:57:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by diySailor
 It looked to me like the port was original to the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It is not. You are lucky a PO put it there, is your traveler bar tight? If those are original rudder fittings you are replacing then the PO put that access port there for some reason.

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diySailor
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Response Posted - 09/12/2012 : 16:41:59

Interesting. Thanks for the tip. It is a translucent round screw in plastic port. I'll have to inspect the area more thorougly and look at the traveler bar as well.

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bigelowp
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Response Posted - 09/12/2012 : 19:19:47

Have had the same minor "slop issue" but it has not seemed worth the effort to fix -- but -- my sons sailing buddies set out two years ago to fix "my" problem. They used electrical tape, which worked most of a season. I never replaced it the next spring as "my"problem was really no problem. I have never owned a boat without some play in the tiller . . . And at least with our boats I can see it!

Edited by - bigelowp on 09/12/2012 19:21:45

diySailor
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Response Posted - 09/13/2012 : 17:00:08

Thinking of the port addition for access to the upper gudgeon, my gudgeon was reinforced with some kind of "cement" and not a metal backing plate. I thought that was kind of strange as a bedded metal plate would seem to distribute the load better. The "cement" is not flat where the washers and nuts mount on it but it seems to be very solid and shows no sign of cracking so I just left it as is. I don't know why a metal backing plate wasn't used but if the "cement" wasn't original, could have the previous owner added the "cement" reinforcement as added support? reasons? (BTW, the lower gudgeon has the "cement" backing as well.)

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delliottg
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Response Posted - 09/13/2012 : 17:16:09

I wonder how well using JB Weld would work to form a bushing with? It's designed to be machined like metal after it cures, so possibly you could fill the gudgeon with it, let it set up & then drill it out for a more precise fit.

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hinmo
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248 Posts

Response Posted - 09/13/2012 : 23:14:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by delliottg
 I wonder how well using JB Weld would work to form a bushing with? It's designed to be machined like metal after it cures, so possibly you could fill the gudgeon with it, let it set up & then drill it out for a more precise fit.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

not a bad idea! Worth a try next offseason

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/14/2012 : 08:03:57

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by diySailor
 Thinking of the port addition for access to the upper gudgeon, my gudgeon was reinforced with some kind of "cement" and not a metal backing plate. I thought that was kind of strange as a bedded metal plate would seem to distribute the load better. The "cement" is not flat where the washers and nuts mount on it but it seems to be very solid and shows no sign of cracking so I just left it as is. I don't know why a metal backing plate wasn't used but if the "cement" wasn't original, could have the previous owner added the "cement" reinforcement as added support? reasons? (BTW, the lower gudgeon has the "cement" backing as well.)
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If I remember correctly, the "cement" you're seeing is epoxy covering a bronze plate with threaded holes in it. The gudgeon bolts screw into the plate. Nuts and washers may have been added by a PO. If my memory is correct, this suggests (theoretically) you could replace the upper gudgeon without cutting an access port... although nuts and washers are probably a good idea (at 30 years old). Now, that's my memory from working on my '85 some 12 years ago--somebody can tell me if I'm losing it...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/14/2012 08:05:24

awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/14/2012 : 08:10:56

Dave: That reflects what I found inside my 1984 C-25. The "cement" bond had failed to the fiberglass though, so replacing the gudgeon without an access port wouldn't have been difficult at best. The cement also covered up the threads on the bolts and made it difficult to get them back through the bronze plate, if I remember correctly I broke at least one of the bolts in the process.

When I replaced my upper gudgeon I drilled out the threaded holes in that plate to turn it into a backing plate, and added new washers and nuts. Lots of LifeCaulk too.

I was nervous about adding the access plate, but it was easy.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/15/2012 : 11:18:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hinmo
 I also wonder if the looseness adds to the rudder/tiller "flutter" I get at certain speeds. If it isn't critical, I won't worry it.

And yes, I haven't slept in the boat yet, but plan to in a couple weeks, and my dog house is supposed to be in the aft cab....it is noisy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tie the tiller tightly while turned as far as possible to one side. It will stop the noise in the quarter-berth.

Edited by - on

hinmo
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Response Posted - 09/17/2012 : 17:44:23

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hinmo
 I also wonder if the looseness adds to the rudder/tiller "flutter" I get at certain speeds. If it isn't critical, I won't worry it.

And yes, I haven't slept in the boat yet, but plan to in a couple weeks, and my dog house is supposed to be in the aft cab....it is noisy
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Tie the tiller tightly while turned as far as possible to one side. It will stop the noise in the quarter-berth.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Slept in the dog house this weekend, wicked comfortable...agreed it was calm so not any rudder noise (it was bungee corded up), but it was so comfie with my 6'3" 250lbs body!!! Head facing forward was key. Only minor problem was getting up bi-hourly for the over 55 bodily-function (over-share), but that is everywhere. Overall, Was real nice back there.

Edited by - hinmo on 09/17/2012 17:47:05

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