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Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Catalina 25 in Southern CA

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/17/2003 : 21:27:40

Hi, I am an experienced power boater with a family of 4 who has cruised a 35 footer 5000 miles from Milwaukee to Georgetown in the Bahamas and back to Florida (where we sold the boat). I want to learn to sail. I live in San Diego. I am looking at 3 Catalina 25's this weekend. My family is used to the water and to living in small spaces. The kids really want to go again.

How suitable is the boat for Southern CA. summer waters? I plan to daysail out of Mission Bay, go fishing in near coastal waters, good weather only. (What is "good weather" to a Cat 25? I would like to take an annual 2 week vacation in Catalina in nice summer weather. Don't want to pull a trailer so that's a 120 mile one way sail (with several overnight stops available along the way).

I am NOT going to get a swing keel (fin keel only) and can only afford older boats in the $5K - $6K range. There are a couple of nice ones around. They are all pop-tops. I've also looked at Cat 27s but $5K buys a much nicer 25.

Am I kidding myself or can the boat go coastal cruising in these waters? How will the boat handle the 10 knot breeze and 2 to 3 foot afternoon chop common here in the summer ocean? At what height will ocean swells become uncomfortable and dangerous? 4 feet? 5? 1?

What's the problem with the pop-tops offshore? Do they leak badly even when down? Do you commonly have some kind of canvas or vinyl enclosure when up? What should I be looking for in this department?

How do you guys handle dinghys? Towing? Or do you use only ones that can be deflated and boxed?

Can anyone estimate their average monthly cost of ownership (exclude slip fees)?

I have read every post on this list and have read all the tips on shopping for, and inspection of, the Cat 25. Great site and what a great group of owners!

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 00:11:56

Jim - The Catalina 25 is a very nice small cruiser, and should easily fit your anticipated use, especially a fin keel boat. Just keep in mind that this is not a "blue water voyager", and is not designed for harsh offshore conditions. Your safety depends very much on your knowledge of sailing and small boat handling in general, what to do when the weather turns bad, and how your boat responds in different wind and sea conditions. For example, a typical Catalina 25 skipper might run a full main and 130% Genoa in winds up to 15 kts. In winds 15-23 kts, you might reef the main to the first reef point and switch to a smaller 90%-110% jib. In winds 23-30 kts, reef the main to the second reef point. Wind 30-40 kts, drop the jib and sail under the reefed main alone. The boat won't point very well without a headsail, but you will have better control. Wind over 40? I wouldn't be out in a Catalina 25 if I could help it. That much wind kicks up big seas, and the C-25 hull, rudder, and rigging isn't designed for a pounding. Some of the weak points in a Catalina 25 in bad weather: The rudder, gudgeons, and pintles. Rudders that are a few years old might have dryrot in the core that can cause them to break without warning in heavy seas. The foredeck hatch, pop-top, and cabin windows are all light-duty parts that could fail in "survival" conditions. The pre-1986 boats, which have glass windows instead of Lexan, are especially vulnerable. Any boat with an outboard motor will be more difficult to handle in heavy seas, compared to an inboard diesel, if you have to motor home for some reason. This is because the propeller is not as deep in the water and will frequently cavitate in even relatively small swells. If you plan on taking the boat outside of protected harbors and into the open ocean, for example San Diego to Catalina and the Channel Islands, you must have a good weather forecast and be prepared for changes, Remember that even in fine sunny weather, the difference in the wind and seas between early morning and late afternoon can be a LOT; like flat calm at 0700 and winds gusting to 30 at 17:00.

>Am I kidding myself or can the boat go coastal cruising in these waters?
>How will the boat handle the 10 knot breeze and 2 to 3 foot afternoon
>chop common here in the summer ocean? At what height will ocean swells
>become uncomfortable and dangerous? 4 feet? 5? 10'?

12 kt breezes and 2' chop is when a Catalina 25 really shows her stuff! The C-25 is a pretty heavy, "fat" cruiser, and it takes at least some wind to get the boat moving at hull speed. As for what size waves are "uncomfortable", that depends on not only the wave height, but the wave length, too. For example, a 3' wind driven chop, in shallow water near shore, with the waves only a couple of boat lengths apart, is a very rough ride and a beast to pound through if you have to sail close-hauled to the wind. On the other hand, I have been in 16' high swells that didn't stress the boat at all, because the wavelength was hundreds of yards and the period between swells was more than 12 seconds (I did however, get ghastly seasick after an hour of this).

Always have a contingency plan prepared. Ask yourself, what will I do if the weather starts to turn bad or the forecast is threatening? I am a scuba diver, as well as a sailor, and I can say from experience that the sea is an ever-changing environment, unforgiving of mistakes, inexperience, and poor planning. Ironically, the vast majority of boating injuries and fatalities happen close to shore, rather than on the open ocean, simply because a sudden change in weather or a mechanical breakdown of the boat can cause it to driven onto a lee shore, smashed on rocks, or capsized in breaking surf very quickly, before the crew has time to take corrective action.

I don't mean to frighten you off, just keep in mind that the Catalina 25 is not a "crab crusher" like a Pacific Seacraft or Westsail 32, with everything heavy duty and designed for handling storms at sea and rough conditions that can last for days or even weeks. You will really really love the Catalina 25 for family fun, it has a lot of "creature comfort" for only being 25' long.

SOME TIPS: Try to buy a boat that is at least '82 or newer! The older boats have the gas tank inside the lazarette, rather than in a separate gas locker, and I guarantee you that this will be a source of worry. If the tank or the fuel hose springs a leak in there, raw gas goes right into the bilge. I know, because "Quiet Time" is a '79, and I worry about it all the time.

I know you want a Fixed keel boat, but if you find a very nice, late model swing keel at a nice price, do consider it! You can get the swing-to-wing conversion for about $3000 installed, and the wing keel is much more trailer-friendly than the deep draft fin keel. If you really like the boat, you will sooner or later want to take it up to Bellingham or Anacortes and cruise the San Juan and Gulf Islands. My personal opinion is that the late model '88-'90 Catalina 25 wing keeler is the "ultimate" trailerable cruising sailboat, at least in the under-10,000 pound weight, and under $20,000 class. There are a few people trailering Catalina 27's and 270's, but these require special trailers, wide load permits, and a yard crane to rig the mast, so I don't consider these "trailerable" in the same sense that a Catalina 22 or 25 is. If you have a Bill Gates size income, the Pacific Seacraft Dana 24 is trailerable, but at several times the price of the average Catalina 25.

Good luck, have fun shopping, and let us know what you find!



Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 12:31:18

I suspect you'll find Catalina harbor full of very similar boats...

Unless there's some sort of unusual weather pattern set up, I wouldn't be concerned at all about making such a trip in a Catalina 25... swing, wing or fin. IMHO she's a fairly robust design.

For that venue, having a good high-torque 4 stroke outboard on a good mount would be high on my 'desirable' rating list. Sounds like you're already familiar with the needed nav and safety equipment.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2003 : 15:26:46

Jim,

I agree with most of what Larry says, but he recommends against being out in winds over 40. I would recommend generally against being offshore in winds over 30, and even then not until you have a little sailing experience. As you know, the size and shape of the waves depend on other conditions than just wind speed. On an inland lake, where waves cannot build, the C-25 can handle winds in the 30-40 range. Off the California coast, where the coast is a lee shore and the waves have been building for a couple thousand miles, you really don’t want your family in a C-25 in those winds.

You are accustomed to a 35’ motor yacht with a powerful engine. If the conditions get rough, you have engine power to drive you through it. The outboard engine of a sailboat is useless in really rough conditions, and you have to use your sails to drive you through it. It takes a fairly competent sailor to claw off a lee shore in a small sailboat in 30-40 kt. winds and big seas, and the noise and spray and pounding is hard on the boat and frightening to the crew. Although a C-25 can do it, it isn’t something you want to put your family through. Another factor to consider is the skill of the skipper. A novice sailor can easily get overwhelmed by 20 kt. winds. A skilled sailor knows how to rig the boat for hard going, and how to take care of the boat, and can nurse it through much tougher conditions.

As Larry points out, the height of the waves is less of a concern for a sailboat than the shape of the waves. Long, sloping, ten foot high ocean swells are no problem, but steep, ten foot high waves that are breaking over a shoaling bottom are dangerous.

The pop top is a weak point for a C-25, but it also opens up the interior space and makes it more comfortable when you’re not sailing. (A snap-on vinyl pop top enclosure was an option on a new C-25.) If waves sweep the coach roof, the pop top can leak and waves can even sweep the pop top off, but you shouldn’t be out in conditions where that is a possibility.

My C-25 is a 1981, and it has the separate locker for the gas tank.

Your plans sound realistic and appropriate to a C-25, and you sound like you have enough experience to know how the sea can behave. Take your time, learn how to rig your boat for different conditions, and be willing to shelter for a day or two if the weather is threatening. Now that you are a sailor, you’ll have to forget about getting anywhere fast, but you’ll enjoy the challenge of using the wind to get there.

When coastal cruising, I usually plan on sailing 15-25 miles a day. If the wind is light, the sun is hot, and you can only average 3 kts. or less, 15 miles makes for a longish day. On a day like that, I don’t hesitate to use the outboard to get to my destination, if necessary. (Okay, so I’m no purist.)

I have towed hard dinks and inflatables, and prefer inflatables. They seem more stable, easier to move around if you want to back up under power, and you don’t have to worry about them bumping against the boat.

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 13:03:19

Do it! We are in year 6 of Cat25 ownership in LA Harbor/Catalina Island area and simply loving it.

Try an "exact phrase" Search for 'Catalina Island' -- lots of info.

People from San Diego say it's about 15 - 18 hours to the island (typically upwind going, downwind returning). On the outbound trip, some suggest starting out in the evening and cuising overnight, so to avoid the afternoon winds.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2d725b3127cce907c1ad9acaf0000001410" border=0>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cf39b3127cce92448c0b84670000001410" border=0>

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

tblanco
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2003 : 15:19:34

Hi Jim!

I've sailed arround San Diego Bay and the nearby coast out to the Coronado Islands. Catalina is a great boat and have no regrets in having purchased it over a decade ago,I have a Swing Keel that is on a trailer right now.
Although the seas arround here don't usually get too rough, I did have one experience a few years ago when I went out to sea to watch whales migrating down to Baja. There was a small craft advisory from the coast guard which I decided to ignore. I felt relatively safe because I was accompanied by another sailboat (also a Catalina)and felt that if anything went wrong at least we could help each other.
As soon as we cleared Point Loma we felt the full strenght of the wind and the deep swells of the Pacific. It was necessary to lower our Jib and for the first time in owning the sailboat I had to reef the main and watch the swells break over the bow, it was exciting but with the swing keel I felt uneasy. We continued out to sea for a mile or so and then decided it was just too rough en returned to port.
The boat held up perfectly but I don't think I would want to do that again unless I had a larger boat.
I've read recently where some sailors have been stranded for days on voyages to Catalina and drifted down to baja with broken masts etc etc so play it safe, make sure you have a good radio and battery and let people know when and where you are going and when you plan to get there and call them on arrival.
Also I'm not speaking from experience but there seems to be a lot of traffic of big container ships going up through Long Beach so I would sail only during the day if possible!

Also make sure your family members all know how to sail, It's not like a motor boat where you just start the engine and go straight!

San Diego State has an excellent and fun sailing program in Mission Bay perhaps you might take a look at it and get good basics all together!

Good luck

Tony Blanco
"Iberia"

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