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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

That Dratted Keel Wire!

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capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/28/2012 : 17:00:50

After 25 years with my C25 swing keel I've had enough bad experiences with the keel cable to be very careful- just put in a new cable this spring. But... after a nice sail downwind yesterday I decided to drop the keel to go to windward. I gave a pull on the winch handle (making sure it didn't ratchet to pull up) and heard that classic "ping" of something breaking, then the thump of the keel hitting the fiberglass. Ugh- I must have tightened instead of dropping! I quickly checked that the bilges were not filling, then started sailing toward some local marinas. I then called my boatyard to see if they could get me into their shallow entrance. Their reply was that it was dead low tide and there was no way to tow me in. Plan B was to call my son and use his power boat to tow me to another marina with somewhat deeper water. This marina also said it was dead low and they only had 3-4 ft of water. About an hour later my son arrived. With two 400 HP engines in a 36 foot boat, he was able to tow me easily. Fortunately, the river bottom was all mud, so we plowed a furrow for a mile or so until we got into the marina. So you CAN drive a 6 ft keel through 3 feet of water if only you have a swinger and enough power.
I went down this morning and inspected the boat. Fortunately, no obvious fiberglass damage, but at least one of the keel mounting bolts is loose. What failed was the shackle that screws into the keel. They'll have to drop the keel, so I'll take the opportunity to replace most of the lifting system.
This is the third time that something has failed from overtightening the winch- what I really need is a light that goes on when the keel is up against the trunk. I may work on that over the winter.
Wish me luck-
Ed

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/28/2012 : 21:34:14

That is certainly a worst case bad luck/good luck story. Did you still have the old eye bolt or the CD replacement? If it was the SS CD fitting, how old was it? I hadn't thought much about it, but the attachment could be seriously compromised with little visual evidence. I would think it would take some serious effort to break any component of the lifting system unless it was compromised. I hope that you are fortunate enough to not have serious damage.

Edited by - on

Jay Schkloven
1st Mate

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USA
84 Posts

Response Posted - 09/29/2012 : 06:58:09

The issues with the swing keel can be serious. I have painted the cable at a spot where the keel is 80% up. This way I can visually see that I have reached a point where the keel is up so that I can get into a shallow slip. I also think that when the keel is all the way up this does put an extra strain on the keel/cable attachment.
The white paint is just Rustoleum and it lasts a year or two. I watch the cable as I raise the keel and stop when I see the paint.
Just a Q-tip and a little paint will do the job.

Edited by - on

capted
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/29/2012 : 13:40:49

Thanks for the comments. The "loop" of the shackle broke- it didn't pull out of the keel. It was probably 10 years old, but I didn't check it carefully this spring. The paint is a nice simple solution. Maybe I'm trying too hard to get the keel up tight.
The funny thing for today is that I sent a copy of this post to my son, who indignantly e-mailed me to say that his boat makes 565 hp out of each engine- not a mere 400 hp! I'm thinking that I could have set a new speed record for a C25 if he had opened it up a little.
Ed

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 09/29/2012 : 19:03:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I'm thinking that I could have set a new speed record for a C25 if he had opened it up a little.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you had a wing it might have worked as a hydrofoil.

I guess I have to add the attachment assembly to my remove&replace schedule, maybe every other cable replacement.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 09/29/2012 19:07:40

Boomeroo
Navigator

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Australia
129 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2012 : 00:24:08

JAY , a great idea , I lift my keel 10 turns of the winch Then enter shallow water , then wind it up the rest ( about 10 more I think but often loose count ,age and delays as I wipe any weed etc of the cable ) A couple of marks with paint if so so simple . I really only want to lift the keel to the depth of the rudder ,for shallow water.

My cable is now attached with a non-smooth flow Shackle

This is very easy to inspect and Cheap to replace Also cable is a simple make also. . Only one shackle next time . This arrangement means I don't pull the keel up fully .

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 09/30/2012 : 05:39:39

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">My cable is now attached with a non-smooth flow Shackle <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
My cable/attachment point doesn't look anything like that......

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2012 : 14:53:54

This is what I have from CD:

The old standard was an eye bolt. Ed, do you have a shackle like Graeme?

Edited by - on

capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2012 : 16:50:39

No, I have an eye bolt that threads into the keel-the eye failed this time. I am going to get one of the Catalina Direct fittings to replace what I have. After looking around the web, I'm thinking of putting a wire clamp just above the termination of the wire cable. It will act as a definite stop, and will avoid putting stress on the shackle/eye bolt. I've had one instance where the cable was pulled out of the crimped fitting, and two times the eye bolt failed. As discussed above, it might be a good idea to replace the eye bolt as well as the cable.
I'm also going to replace the hose, clamps and turning ball, which have never been replaced as far as I know.
What's the consensus on replacing the winch? It still seems to work OK.
Ed

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2012 : 19:07:15

I replace the turning ball with the cable change. It can create a lot of drag when it gets wedged and grooved. The winch, as long as it is working properly and not corroded, can be left alone; I have no idea how old Pearl's winch is, but it still cranks in and out.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 09/30/2012 : 21:42:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by capted
 ...I've had one instance where the cable was pulled out of the crimped fitting, and two times the eye bolt failed...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Ed, I have to ask: how has your boat survived these failures? When that 1500# slab of iron drops, and the head slams into the aft end of the upper trunk, that's more than just a "thump." I'm surprised that it didn't rupture the trunk walls and sink the boat. I'm astounded to read that it's happened several times and there's "...no obvious fiberglass damage..."

Could there have been some kind of post-factory upgrade that strengthened the enclosure, or are the rest of us swinger-owners worrying unnecessarily?

I'm also surprised to read that you've been sailing with the keel up; in what kind of wind have you been able to do that? Have you ever had to swerve to avoid another boat and gotten sideways to the wind? I'd like to know how much stability we have with the keel up - I've been afraid to try it on my own.

Edited by - on

cat30
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Response Posted - 10/01/2012 : 10:03:02

After the cable broke for the third time the fiberglass trunk finally cracked- i finally swapped the swing keel for the Catalina wing keel.

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capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2012 : 14:33:42

First, about the fiberglass. The first time I dropped the keel I had extensive damage. The keel punched through the surface of the seat which forms part of the "stop", and cracked the trunk. Although it leaked a little, there didn't seem to be a risk of sinking. Like this latest incident, I had the boat hauled within a few hours. It took several months and some extensive fiberglass repair to make it good again. The fiberglass guy had to cut out parts of the interior to get at all of the trunk. I assume he must have strengthened the trunk since the last 2 times have not done much damage. Still, I don't recommend breaking the cable. What has been damaged the last 2 times has been the bolts that hold the keel. That had to be reglassed the first time- I'm hoping it's just a stripped bolt this time.

As far as sailing with the keel up- It's quite common when going down wind, which is what I was doing-there's less drag. On a reach, I've seen no problem when the wind is light. There will be some leeway, but not an issue when just sailing around.
I needed to be hard on the wind going back to the marina, so I was going to put the keel down. I doubt that you'll have problems with getting sideways, but the boat will be more tender with the keel up. So I probably wouldn't keep it up with a 15 knot breeze.
Ed

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dmpilc
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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2012 : 16:35:26

Unless you are in very shallow water, you should ALWAYS sail with the swing keel fully lowered. Less risky, plus that's how it was designed.
If your boat is kept in fresh water, there's no reason to raise the keel unless you encounter shallow water or are hauling her out of the water.

Edited by - dmpilc on 10/01/2012 16:37:56

redviking
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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 10/01/2012 : 20:54:00

While I understand the usage one can get out of a swinger, for me the risks are a definite negative. A mega yacht a few years ago had the keel stuck in the down position and couldn't go anywhere because the keel couldn't be raised. Sinking because of damage to the trunk, aaarrrggghhh! I'll take a fixed keel and run aground anyday.

I think that someone should design a system with some redundancy built in. Stuff like this situation seems preventable somehow.

Sten

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Merrick
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USA
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Response Posted - 10/02/2012 : 06:11:10

My fear has been having the keel corrode around the threads of the CD shackle and the whole thing pull out of the keel. Looking at Boomeroo's shackle you could install one like that behind the CD shackle and run a short cable (maybe 8" long) from it to the main cable and crimp it on. Would give a backup for a failure of that main connection. Would that weaken the main cable?

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Jay Schkloven
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Response Posted - 10/06/2012 : 08:42:10

I see no good reason to sail with the swing keel up. The difference in speed, speed????, does not seem to be worth the risk of turning into the wind and having an issue. If you single hand the boat, lowering the keel is an issue if the wind picks up.
I would only purchase a cable from one of the factory suppliers. I would hope that the cable would be the best quality material because the factory supplier knows the issues a broken cable can cause.
With a broken keel cable the keel can be raised some, if necessary, by walking a line back along the sides of the boat and using a winch to lift it just enough to keep it from banging by not being attached to a cable. I have seen this done once and it was successful.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/06/2012 : 09:42:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Jay Schkloven
 I would only purchase a cable from one of the factory suppliers. I would hope that the cable would be the best quality material because the factory supplier knows the issues a broken cable can cause.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">IMHO, you can trust Catalina Direct (no relationship to Catalina Yachts) to provide components of equal or better quality than the originals. Catalina has been out of the swing keel business for years (other than the C-22), while CD has been in the business of helping us repair and upgrade our C-25s. (I receive no royalties for these comments.

)

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capted
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Response Posted - 10/06/2012 : 19:28:06

Merrick- I've been thinking about something like a backup cable as you describe. I may try it at some point- even if it is not as strong as the regular setup maybe it will slow down the descent of a free-falling keel.
For now, I'm optimistic I'll get back in the water soon. After dropping the keel, we found one broken keel bolt, no damage to the areas that the keel hit, and one minor crack in the fiberglass trunk about 3 feet behind the keel pivot. I'll get my Catalina Direct parts kit on Tuesday, which should be a quick install. Then I just have to wait for the fiberglass to be patched.
I've decided I'll go with the simple suggestion of painting a mark on the cable to show when the keel is all the way up.
I'm hoping for one more good sail this season!

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/08/2012 : 15:27:21

It would be pretty tough to get a backup cable, especially with a swaged fitting, past the turning ball

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Merrick
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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 12:50:20

Dave I'm thinking short enough it wouldn't reach the turning ball and wouldn't hit the tube at all unless cranked up tight. When I pull out for maintenance next month I will take a closer look. I change the cable every 2 years and feel fairly secure with it, but corrosion is a worry, sitting in salt water.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 10/10/2012 : 07:11:11

Zincs on the keel. A very short, slack cable could work to just back up the attachment. I suspect that a stainless shackle and less than a foot of cable is about all that would fit

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Merrick
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Response Posted - 10/10/2012 : 18:25:30

that's what I'm thinking and have almost no slack in the short cable so it wouldn't be a huge jolt if the main one broke. We keep the zincs on also.

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capted
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 10/29/2012 : 15:29:26

checked with the marina on Saturday- it's all ready to go! New keel wire and fiberglass. I told them I thought about going in Monday but decided to wait. I'm not sure how the swing keel would hold up in 60 knot winds.

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capted
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Response Posted - 11/04/2012 : 17:33:08

Well- my C25 may have gone sailing without me! They had a five foot storm surge in the marina where I was having the repairs done, and I hope I was blocked up a bit higher than that. The marina is still in disaster recovery mode, so I can't get in to assess the damage, but they have told me the boat is OK. It depends on whether it stayed on the blocks or floated around hitting things. I did see the rig, and the furling jib survived with some extra line holding it closed.
I hope I'll get in to see her this week.
I also visited my winter storage marina- they are also still in recovery mode, so it will be a few weeks before I can bring the boat around and put it away for the winter. Perhaps my first forstbiting experience.

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