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Stupid Truck question - again

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Initially Posted - 10/09/2012 : 07:31:54

I don't need the pro-con list of a variety of trucks, I just came across a cheap beater and am wondering if it will work.

Has anyone on here tried to launch/retrieve with a 2WD Suburban? Is this a recipe for disaster, and is 4WD absolutely a must-have? I know there are a few guys who use blocks on the ramp - with blocks would it work?

With a tongue extension or strap, is it even possible to retrieve a fin-keel on a ramp?

As an aside to this group, but important to me - how well does the 2wd do in the snow/ice? Are these 'floaty' on ice the same as a pickup truck? I got myself in trouble once with the rear-wheel drive on an Astrovan and don't want a repeat.

The find is a late 90's 2WD full-size Suburban (2500 series) with stupid low miles on it (around 100,000), but I am sorta hung up on the 2WD part.

"Iris"
1984 FK/SR #4040
http://frosthaus.blogspot.com/

Take a minute to register your boat with the association!!
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/owner_questionnaire.htm

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 07:54:50

There's no single good answer to this question, because it all depends on variables, like the design of the boat ramp, your trailer, etc.

Generally, I launched and retrieved my fin keel C25 with an Econoline van, and later with a Chev 1/2 ton pu truck with air shocks. I did not have a tongue extension (but often wished I did) and never used a strap or similar device. My trailer was an EZ Loader with roller bunks and swing arms. I couldn't have launched from a fixed bunk trailer without a tongue extension. Our ramps were specifically designed with a quick drop-off, to help in launching trailer-sailers, so they made it somewhat easier. Sometimes I had to back into the water until it was over the end of the exhaust pipe, and that was always discomforting.

Although it can be done, it is sooooo much easier with a 4WD, because there were times when the ramp was slippery, and I had to ask someone to hook a chain to my front frame and help me get started up the ramp. When the State installed a hoist, I used it to launch and retrieve the boat, and was happy to avoid the hassle.

My best answer is that you can do it, but you'll be much happier with 4WD.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 07:59:49

Nothing works well on ice. 4wd is nice for peace of mind, but not mechanically essential. Sitting uphill on a ramp with a trailer hanging off the rear means the front wheels are lightly loaded and won't add a lot. With a strap or extension and a bag of sand to dump on slippery ramps you would probably be fine. I just looked up a newer 1500: 51/49% wt. distribution and 8,000 lb. towing when properly equipped. That is really good distribution for the vehicle type. I always chock my wheels - it keeps me off of Youtube.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 08:18:13

I launched with my Chevy 2500 HD 4x4 crew cab long bed and never used 4 wheel drive. I may or may not use 4 wheel drive when I retrieve (likely this weekend now)... hard to say... but then my rear bumper will likely be right at water level for this as I am concerned about strap retrieval (have bad visions of the trailer tilting), so with most rear of the truck underwater, I may "play it safe" and use 4x4. But then my truck is #5500 dry weight, and with tongue weight, I doubt that much water will keep it from holding fast.

The suburban is a great vehicle, and will likely be MORE than enough truck with 2WD for a decent incline ramp. Are you lake or salt water?

My pickup has an electronic locker on it (factory) which makes a huge difference, I suspect if that is the HD Suburban, it likely does as well. If not the "upgrade to LSD" is not terribly expensive (parts are about $500).

I've always had 4x4, but never really considered it a requirement for hauling, just a nice margin of error.

Our ramps are VERY steep, so I am considering NOT strap retrieve. However, I have 3 different ways I can try this retrieval...
1) Drop the truck WAY back (no extension, just on the ball), this is how I launched, and it was "interesting" but it worked, and the boat floated off, so go figure.
2) Normal strap retrieve. Pull truck up, (I have dolly wheels rated #300 each under the tongue with huge pnuematic tires 8"), lower trailer with strap giving better "angle" to get the boat on the trailer. Strap retrieve to the edge of the water, block the trailer, and put trailer on the ball (will use a floor axle jack to prevent the trailer from flopping too far on it's heel.
3) Same idea as 2 but I might move 1 of the 2 dolly wheels to the back of the trailer, so that it can't tip far back should too much weight be aft (I doubt it is)... I think that boat is if anything a bit tongue heavy. But I might consider this depending on how 2 goes. it puts a lot of strain on 1 dolly, but I honestly don't think I have more than say #400 of tongue weight anyway.

Either way, this process will occur with mast already down/secured and boat basically ready for transport. Again I'll let you know.

My goal is to organize myself for self-launch and retrieve... I managed that with my 22, I suspect I can do it with the 25.

Not sure if I posted this here or not (don't want to bore you with same pictures over and over).... but the middle wheel is removable and would be for this, those other 2 dolly wheels swivel which (I've seen used, but am now thinking would be better if they didn't move)

Again I'll let you know how it all goes, check back with me next Monday.

Edited by - shnool on 10/09/2012 08:21:31

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 09:08:03

Have you looked into a 4 wheel drive Suburban where you can disengage
the 4 wheel drive when not needed?

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 11:32:46

Oh, and by the way, all these larger SUVs are pretty light in the rear in the snow, if you put weight in the rear, and a set of snow tires it'll help immensely. But even my 4x4 is pretty tough in the snow, until I engage 4wheel. The locker makes it better than the Dodge Ram, Dodge Durango, and Dodge Dakotas I had before though. Plus this truck is about 4 feet longer than anything else I've owned, so it handles the snow better.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 12:22:20

Schnool - thanks for the info - We are on Lake Ontario, freshwater. How does that make a difference though? Weight in the rear and snow tires was supposed to help the van too. It wasn't enough. By "tough in the snow" do you mean hard to handle, or strong?

Bear - this question is focussed on 2WD because I found an older one with 100,000 miles on it for $2500.00 - That price could be at least tripled for a similar 4X4, putting it well outside SWMBO's acceptance zone for Dad toys.

Many previous truck threads have discussed the merits of a Suburban as an expensive, but capable tow vehicle which is prone to glitches mechanically. Thanks all for not going there again, or starting any post with "My <Ford/Jeep/Honda/Cavalier> is the best tow vehicle, why are you wasting your time looking at this one?"

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 12:55:21

Take this with grain of salt as I've never pulled my boat with anything but 4WD engaged.

I'd think a properly set up Suburban with a couple of buckets of sand for traction if necessary, should be able to pull one of our boats out of the water handily. The thing I'd worry about most would be sliding on a slimy/icy ramp. A bit of sand in front of the drive wheels would probably cure that. Oh, and we always use wheel chocks on the ramp (I'm assuming that's what you mean by blocks?) when we're recovering our wing keel (your fin would ride even higher, which means you'd have to get your trailer deeper, I think). We also always strap launch, so we have to chock the trailer, and we chock both back wheels when we do so.

My truck (here we go...) is almost useless in snow in 2WD only. I found this out the semi-hard way trying to get up one of the steep hills to my house during a freakish snow storm a few years back. Theoretically I have on the fly shifting for 4WD, but that's only if your vacuum system is working (mine wasn't which explained myriad other faults). Fortunately it's old enough that it still had lockers on the front hubs, so I could manually lock them (after I'd filled up the bed of the truck with snow with an oar from the dinghy for weight). However, mine is a truck, with no weight in the back, whereas the Suburban isn't, so it's weight ratio should help in the snow. Now that my vacuum system is fixed, I can again lock my hubs from the comfort & warmth of the cab (and shift my air ducts away from defrost only) and once it's in 4WD, it's pretty unstoppable.

Edited by - on

shnool
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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 13:06:07

Yep, tough meaning difficult... I think the suburban will do better than a similar equipped pickup (for the same reasons David said) slightly more weight over the wheels than a pickup. It'll probably be very much like a full sized van though. Again more weight in the rear will help.

Freshwater seems to grow the slime more than salt on the ramps... not sure why (plus I suppose it depends on the location of the ramp too).

Honestly a 2WD with a locker should do fine... it won't beat a 4x4, but it'll do OK. Yep in your territory I suppose 4x4 is like a golden option on any vehicle. Heck it is around by me in the downright tropical by your standards, pocono winters.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 13:14:22

If the spec sheet for teh mid-90's is the same as Dave quoted above, a 'Burban has a 50-50 weight distribution over the axles. I should look up how that compares to the Astro or a pickup truck. My best snow vehicles so far have been a surprise. The Volvo convertible was fantastic at gripping the road until you built up too much snow in front of it on the body trim under the front bumper and it literally plowed itself to a stop. I could get through drifts over the hood in that thing.

A search of older threads suggests that 2WD is fine on the ramps: http://catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7491 But I still sweat over slime on the ramps. Anyway, I go to look at this truck after work today. We'll see if its as nice in person as I thought.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 19:07:28

See if you can convince the seller to make the sale subject to a successful boat retrieval and tow home. If it doesn't work offer him $100 and go home.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 10/09/2012 : 19:12:29

I can't talk about a Suburban, but if it is in the 2500 series, you should have enough truck for the job. I had a fin keel trailer with a swing keel boat. Our ramp was shallow enough that I always had to use a strap or cable to launch/retrieve. My strap was 30' long and even then I usually had the bumper pretty close to the water's edge. You need to get the trailer deep enough so the front pads are a few inches below the water.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Response Posted - 10/10/2012 : 07:17:30

I stopped an looked in person on the way to the office this AM. The guy selling it is a retiree, he didn't come across as the type to drive hard and fast, but you never know.

There is a hint-o-rust around the wheel wells, but nothing cancerous. It has FG runningboards and fender flares though, so its hard to know how much rust is hidden by the accessories.

Fluids were all full, and the oil looked recent, but not just done - it was dark but not black. ATF was nice and pink. There were 2 little drips on the driveway under the truck, and it had been sitting for a while, so no major oil leaks to speak of.

The back on this one is a tailgate - I would prefer dutch doors, but at the end of the day, its not a deal-breaker. There is a brake booster in the cab, and a full hitch setup in the rear. I didn't check what the wiring/connector was though - I should have.

Tires were all LTs, but not a brand name I recognized. They looked worn, but it was even wear. One of the fronts was soft. Meh.

The interior looked like the vehicle had been used as intended. The leather is tired - cracked, and the carpets are stained. My only concern is that the wear on the leather looks a bit excessive for a vehicle with only 170,000 km on it.

There is no sunroof on it (yay! I would end up putting a canoe through it anyways) and the roof rack looks unused. No scratches/rust on the roof.

It has headers and dual exhaust. I don't know if that will affect fuel economy, and I didn't poke around the exhaust looking for leaks.

Anyways, it looks promising. I booked a mechanical inspection for this afternoon. We'll have to see what come out of that. So far I am thinking it will need 4 winter tires, and maybe some bondo around the wheel wells. I wonder what else the mechanic will find.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 10/10/2012 : 07:30:17

For $2500.....the money you save....you could always hit a junk yard and buy an xfer case and front axle...do the conversion yourself with a little welding for $2k....down the road if it doesn't work out for you.....OR...probably sell it for what you paid or even a little profit with some cheap bling and elbow grease.

$2500, if mechanically sound.....win/win in my book.

EDIT - You said 90's....assuming ninth generation.....does it have the optional 454 or the standard iron 350?

Edited by - Joe Diver on 10/10/2012 07:34:34

Prospector
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Response Posted - 10/10/2012 : 08:44:02

Thanks joe.

I looked into converting it to 4WD, and after a 5 minute search online (which makes me an expert on the subject), I found that it is easier to get a 4X4 truck and bolt a Suburban body on it than to try to stuff a transfer case/driveshaft into a 2WD Suburban. Apparently there is a difference in teh transmission tunnel between the 2WD and 4X4 Suburban, which means you have to put a 2" body lift on the Burban to get things to fit, and then grind/torch out some openings. Of course we all know that on the internet everything is 1000% true, and this information is infallible.

Its a 1995. I don't know what generation that is, but the internet says it was a good year. Remember, I am now the expert.

I dunno what size engine it is. The internet doesn't say. I probably should have asked. A guy at teh office has a late model with the larger engine and he hates it. Says it sucks too much gas for him. He pulls a huge camper with his though, and likely needs the extra power.

Here are the specs for this truck according to Edmunds.com: http://www.edmunds.com/gmc/suburban/1995/features-specs.html?style=5055 - I find it interesting that Edmunds publishes the same towing capacity for the 1500 series as the 2500 series. Both say 10,000 lbs.

The ad for this particular truck is here: http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-cars-vehicles-cars-trucks-1995-GMC-Suburban-2500-SUV-W0QQAdIdZ420231405

Edited by - Prospector on 10/10/2012 08:50:34

GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/10/2012 : 20:29:26

According to the add it's got posi-trac which is good for traction up the ramp. It also says $2,500 or best offer. I'd offer less and see if he goes for it. Really couldn't lose.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 05:04:24

Well, it needed the front bearings tightened up/replaced so I offered him a little less. I am now the proud owner of a tank. If it lasts 3 years, I'm happy. Mechanic thought it looked like a great deal. I hope he's right.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 06:16:40

Congrats, now pictures of it hauling out the boat, are in order.

Edited by - shnool on 10/11/2012 06:18:28

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 07:54:26

Not so quick shnool... it just failed smog testing. Ugh. I may have bought an expensive problem.

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Joe Diver
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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 09:03:38

What motor you got? 454 or 350?

If it has the original cat, you're probably gonna need a new one. They do have a finite life.

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Prospector
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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 11:24:52

Its the 5.7 litre engine (350 cu. inch) - with a full custom exhaust kit on it.

Stock they had a single exhaust, but this one has dual pipes with headers. When the dual pipes went on, it is entirely possible that they cut out the catalytic converters altogether. Besides this, the mechanic suggested that IF the setup has twin o2 sensors, one or both could be being read incorrectly by the computer - or that the pipes could have gone on without any sensors at all. Lucky for me the truck is at teh smog station now and can't be moved without a tow truck, so he can't even poke around to look.

Smog station wants $200 in diagnostics before they will even talk about what could have failed on it. It hit record highs pretty much across the board. The test station said it was running really rich. Computer issues???

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 15:15:15

What smog test? Register it in a state that still has rational laws. Register it as a non road farm vehicle? It is absurd to expect something that old to pass some bureaucrat's test criteria.

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 16:35:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 What smog test? Register it in a state that still has rational laws.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Frank, Canada doesn't have states.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 10/11/2012 : 19:42:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Its the 5.7 litre engine (350 cu. inch) - with a full custom exhaust kit on it.

Stock they had a single exhaust, but this one has dual pipes with headers. When the dual pipes went on, it is entirely possible that they cut out the catalytic converters altogether. Besides this, the mechanic suggested that IF the setup has twin o2 sensors, one or both could be being read incorrectly by the computer - or that the pipes could have gone on without any sensors at all. Lucky for me the truck is at teh smog station now and can't be moved without a tow truck, so he can't even poke around to look.

Smog station wants $200 in diagnostics before they will even talk about what could have failed on it. It hit record highs pretty much across the board. The test station said it was running really rich. Computer issues???
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
There is a good chance the converters are missing as well as the O2 sensors. When they installed the custom exhaust with headers the O2 sensors were most likely not re-installed which might cause the computer to make the engine run rich. Especially since you mentioned it hit record highs across the board.

I'd have the truck towed to another shop that you are comfortable with and have them determine what's wrong. If the O2 sensor(s) are missing it shouldn't be that expensive to have the exhaust system tapped and threaded so the sensors can be re-installed. That is if the wiring for the sensors hasn't been destroyed.

It just sounds to me the computer is trying to compensate for missing information from the sensors.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/12/2012 : 03:17:09

Yep, the headers, and dual exhaust probably made for a lack of O2 sensors, leading to running rich and failing smog. if the headers were installed correctly though, you can get a 2 to 1 to 2 cat, it kinda defeats the purpose of the duals, but at least you only need 1 cat then. I hate it when people do this aftermarket stuff, and don't do it right.

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Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/12/2012 : 04:26:13

I am just hoping that whatever improvement is needed for smog leads to better fuel economy. At least then I can justify the cost against a long term savings at the pump.

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