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Learning to sail...

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binky
Navigator

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USA
115 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/14/2012 : 19:08:15

I just acquired a Catalina 25, cool boat in great shape but I know about sailing what you can fit in a thimble. I have some sailing friends that are helping me learn but there are days when only the g/f and I can go out (without instruction). I am for learning one sail at a time and then combining the two. My buddies "instructors" have different styles, one likes to cruise while the other prefers to be leaned over at 20+ degrees. Any suggestions on self-teaching when friends can't join me?

"Mast Confusion"
1983 SK, #3525
Ken
Hampton Roads, Va

Edited by - on

jerlim
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1484 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2012 : 19:28:18

Read, read and then read some more...then sail, sail and sail some more...this forum has just about everything you need to know about sailing in general and C25s in particular.

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
396 Posts

Response Posted - 10/14/2012 : 21:12:07

Binky - There are some great books out there on the topic. As Jerry stated, read alot and then sail alot. I was in the same boat (no pun intended) this yaer too. I picked up a C25 in June and have sailed quite a bit on our lake. I suggest going out when the winds are 5-10 knots. If the g/f is a little apprehensive, try sailing with the main mostly and the jig furled (if you have a furler). If no furler, put up the storm jib and let her manage that. Most of all, have fun. This is a hobby, not a job. When in doubt, let it out. You can control the heeling to 5-10 degrees that way and it won't be too scary for either one of you.

Best of luck with your new boat.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 03:26:27

Ok you already have the boat, so we aren't talking ASA courses, unless they will do those on your boat with you (which is a cool option)...

Books? yes... lemme recommend one, that I bet nearly everyone here has read, reads, and buys when the new edition comes out.. It's Chapman's Piloting (seamanship & small boat handling)... this is an encyclopedia of sailing. This is terms, points of sail, rights of way, etc. This book gets updated each time the regulations change. It even goes over changes in international regs versus national. It tells you more detail in a couple pages than you can learn in years. It's as much a reference as it is a HOW-TO book.

Finally, I think you will learn best (by now), by just Doing! The Cat 25 is a very forgiving boat. Sailing her on her ear, or just bumping along on main alone, she's still sail!

Finally a huge help? join a sailing club. Maybe race in the cruisers class. Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery, but it's also how you teach yourself good sail trim quickly! You match their sail trim, and match their speed (theoretically)... this teaches you how to trim per wind direction.

By the way, welcome to the insanity! That cat 25 is about as good a keelboat as I think a person could choose as their first sailboat.
Remember to join the association.
Stay here and contribute (we remember starting off as well, and believe it or not, newbies teach us a lot).
Don't forget, that the Cat 25 has the advantage of MANY others out there, local and here. Parts are easy to obtain, from catalinadirect.com which in my opinion makes buying one used a bargain (like being able to go into any auto-parts store and buying chevy 350 parts).

Many here might not admit this, but sailing is a dying sport, so we need to stick together, so ASK lots of questions. It's got a pretty steep learning curve, which deters many people. What makes it fun, and keeps it fun, is sharing it with others. Social meets, and races, and big cruises with great weather. It gets better and better for sure. Your confidence will grow as you sail more often, eventually, it becomes part of your blood, and you'll be itching for your next big sail.

Also, take a look at sailnet.com and the trailersailor.com bulletin boards. There are general sailing forums, with slightly different focuses, but both have legendary sailboat designers who frequent them.

Edited by - shnool on 10/15/2012 03:31:59

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 06:03:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 Many here might not admit this, but sailing is a dying sport....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In addition to being a skilled sailor, John is also a mindreader.

I have to disagree that sailing is a dying sport. After about 40 years, I have seen the popularity of sailing wax and wane with the ups and downs of the economy. When people are out of work, the first thing to go is the sailboat that is kept in the water all summer, because it is a substantial, continuing, and wholly unnecessary expense. But, as soon as the economic situation improves, the popularity of sailing returns, because it's a sport that includes the whole family, it engenders good values, such as a sense of responsibility, and, for those who work at high pressure occupations, I know of no better way to relax and restore one's energy and resilience on weekends, so that you can hit the ground running every Monday morning. Sailing is more than a sport. It's a lifestyle.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 10/15/2012 06:05:36

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 06:29:30

Steve, I hope your are right about waxing and waning... for most of my life I've seen it mostly just fade. Perhaps it's the areas I sail, I dunno...

I couldn't agree with you more though (as usual) about the restorative properties of sailing. It also CAN be relaxing, but isn't always, but it IS always a way to recharge. The challenge a stiff breeze offers, isn't a wine and cheese cruise, but I'll take it any day, because it's fun! The concentration it requires, forces one to let go of the everyday, to focus on the sport in front of you!

Oh and Steve, I might be a mindreader OK, but a "skilled" sailor... I'll never call myself :)

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 06:30:08

Congrats on the new boat! The Catalina 25 was my first boat, and now a friend of mine owns our C-25 and is gaining sailing experience on it. They are very nice first boats because they sail well, a forgiving of mistakes, and can be raced or cruised. The systems are simple and easy to diagnose, and they a very common so it is easy to find specific parts and advice.

Take classes, even if they are on a different boat. It's great to get some formal instruction and they'll force you to do things that your friends probably won't (such as man overboard rescues, learning how to go hove-to, steering with the sails, right of way rules). Learning on another boat is a good thing, you'll become a better sailor by sailing many different types of boats.

Read a lot too. I took my classes at the Center for Wooden Boats in Seattle, and they use this as a textbook:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Complete-Sailor-Second-Edition/dp/0071749578/ref=pd_sim_b_12

I think it's nice to start with. Every topic is presented in 2-4 pages which makes it easy to browse. It has good graphics and isn't overly text dense. It isn't a final authority on all topics, but it is a great sample introduction. We ended up with two copies and leave one on our boat and one at home. I read 2 or 3 other sailing textbooks before taking my classes and none were as good as this one.

Learning from your two friends is good too. Going out with them in tricky conditions will give you two different styles to learn from.

Edited by - awetmore on 10/15/2012 06:52:02

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 06:31:43

A lot of people here love Chapmans, and I have a copy of it too. The trouble it that if feels like a textbook to me, and it puts me to sleep. I have actually read it through, in about my first or second year of boat ownership (only on year 5, so I'm no pro) and I can honestly say that I can't remember a single page standing out as a 'eureka!' moment for me.

Many also love Royce's Sailing Illustrated. I found it the opposite of Chapman's - too disorganized and slap-dash. I found hull diagrams interspersed with sailing instruction and then I'd turn the page and find myself in a replay of picking up a mooring. On the upside, I can remember a few pages from it as standing out with worthwhile tips and tricks.

Since I am a visual, hands on kind of guy, I like picture books. A technical manual with pages of text bores me, but a nice diagram sets things right. For me, The Complete Sailor ( http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Sailor-Second-David-Seidman/dp/0071749578 ) is great for all these things. It covers everything from how to get away from a dock (great diagram showing about 8 different departures sans engine) to running aground to points of sail and trim with simple pencil sketches and plain english. I lend my copy out to new crew often. It takes the fear of sailing away, and makes things pretty simple to understand.

I would suggest taking up racing as a way to learn. Start by crewing on a boat similar to your own. It need not be another catalina 25 (although that would be great) but any keelboat with one mast should be fine. Don't ask too many questions at first (gets annoying) but soak in what is happening and try to figure out why things are done the way they are. Then emulate it on your boat.

As was said earlier - let out the sheets to stand the boat up - when you get nervous, just ease the sheets. Also learn to heave-to and perform a man overboard (MoB) drill. You could hire an instructor to show you these in an afternoon, but you can also learn from a competent skipper. In my boat, knowing these 2 skills is considered critical. We won't sail if I am not confident they can be performed by at least one crew member at any time. (That book has great diagrams of how to heave-to, and how to perform a MoB. We heave-to very regularly.

Finally, you should get a maintenance book, and be familiar with the systems aboard your boat and how they work. No matter how great your boat is today, in the coming months, you will find yourself fixing stuff. This forum is a great resource for maintenance, but even better are the books by Don Casey, and my personal favourite (which is out of print and no one else seems to have heard of) "The Finely Fitted Yacht" by Ferenc Mate which is full of ways to trim out and customize your boat ranging from full renoes to toothbrush holders.

If the weather is blowing stink, and you find yourself sitting at teh dock with nothign but time on your hands, grab a dockline and practice ropework. Once you are confident that you know how to tie a dozen or so of the necessary knots (you'll see the top three referenced over and over again) start learning other fancy knots and trick knots. Then think about how you could apply them if things went wrong.

And finally - don't be afraid to venture away from the dock alone on the boat. Wear a PFD, and carry your radio in the cockpit, if possible go out when other boats are out there, but go out. Start in easy conditions, then push yourself to larger and larger winds. Eventually you'll find yourself surfing big waves and heeled to 20° wondering if there is anything more exhillarating.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 07:35:09

Welcome! I agree with others - read and sail - and not necessarily in that order!

Sailing a c-25 in relatively benign conditions (less than 10knts of wind), it is difficult to get into too much trouble assuming you have a nice open place to sail. If you feel like you are out of control, just release all of the sail control lines. The sails will make lots of noise but the boat will pretty much right herself and point into the wind. Make sure your engine is in good working order so you can run from conditions that make you uncomfortable.

I also agree with the advice to sail single handed if you can. This is a great confidence builder.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 08:39:12

I got started by watching these two DVDs. Both were filmed in the eighties, but cover all the basics. Both DVDs have a section on the weather, and how to fly a spinnaker.

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Learn-Sail-Steve-Colgate/dp/B000077VPC"]Learn to Sail by Steve Colgate[/url]

[url="http://www.amazon.com/Sailing-Confidence-Artist-Not-Provided/dp/B00007AJDG"]Sailing with Confidence[/url]

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 10:16:56

Agree with what the others have said, read/study up on the principles of sailing then go do it. Nothing beats experience. If it's in your wheelhouse, try to give singlehanded sailing a shot when you feel you are ready. It was a few years before I tried it myself and I wish I had done it earlier as it will make you a better sailor and it may open up a whole new level of enjoyment for you.

As to sailing being on the decline, I think this is happening to recreational boating in general. I got into sailing in 1995 when I was in my early thirties and I was by far the young pup amid the other sailors at the marina. I'm about to hit the big five 0 and I'm still the young pup.

Another observance...Every year at the end of the season my marina holds a lottery for the next year's slip assignments. In 1995, there would be 150 boaters vying for 125 available slips. If you didn't get a slip in the lottery, you were then put on the wait list. Since that heyday, the number of boaters participating in the annual lottery has been spirally downward with this year's lottery for next season's slips, which was held a week ago, attracting just 35 boaters.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 10:35:35

Don - We are sneaking up on our 40's and are young, but not th eyoungest in our marina. And our marina is thrilled to have us - they are desperate to attract more families with shallow-draft (under 6ft) boats that fit in the near-shore slips without sticking out into the fairway.

For us the arangement is mutually beneficial - having the smaller boat is cheaper, the slip next to the clubhouse means we can keep an eye on the kids while they play on shore, and we get to know more folks than the big boat owners waaaaay out on the finger docks. Oh and carrying a cooler 20 ft sure beats stumbling out 300' with it.

Being youngish and having a small boat is a good thing in many ways. Too many of my generation hear 'yacht club' and think of waistcoats and spats, 40 foot custom yachts with gleaming brass and hired attendants, and sadly, have never been aboard a sailboat. I wish we had some open houses or something that let folks tour the boats and go for a ride. Once a year we open up the club to the public, but the membership talks about it as a hassle. Its unfortunate.

*ETA - all this isn't to say we couldn't use another 5 ft when we have all three kids and the dog aboard, but still there a lot of advantages to being the small boat sailor.

Edited by - Prospector on 10/15/2012 10:36:43

binky
Navigator

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USA
115 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 12:30:55

Thank you everyone for you input, please keep it coming. I can take a bit from from everyone and put it into play. The reading/studying has been done, the knot tying lessons have been done etc. But reading and actually doing are two different things.

"Schnool"...thanks for the kind words on my purchase and the info. Everyone I have talked to in the sailing community has said that I have a great boat to learn on.

Again thanks to all for your input, I think we might try the main with my g/f tomorrow. It has been up with a teacher several times now. Now to try on my own. If worse comes to worse, I have an oar, an outboard motor and a VHF radio. Forgot, towboat insurance....got that too, as long as a tugboat doesn't run over me I should be good.

Any and all advice is still welcomed.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 13:30:52

I recommend sailing with both sails, not just one. The boat will handle better (less weatherhelm) and it is a lot easier to see and avoid an accidental jibe with a both sails up then when you are running just the main.

If you want to keep things slow and easy then reef your main and use the smallest jib that you own instead of running on just one sail.

There are times when you'll use just one sail (on Saturday I was sailing in ~30kt winds with a reefed main and no jib), but I consider it to be harder than sailing with both sails.

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
396 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 19:45:35

Binky - Where do you sail? You might want to add your home port to your signature. I got my C25 SK to learn on a local lake (about 12 miles x 1-1/2 miles) and them eventionally take it down to Long Island Sound after a few seasons. My wife "freaks out" a little when it heels too much so I'm careful to limit the heeling when she is with me. My Dad and I go out often and he's OK with it. Do you have a furler? I find that my 150% Genoa is too much for her so I furl it to about 80% and I man the helm and main. This way the tacks don't need to be so precise as long as I do my part. She feels more comfortable in that role and is contributing. When I have a crew of 3 including me, I put the whole 150% out there and she really moves. With the full genny out there, it does take a few hands to get it around the shrouds smoothly. I've not tried to singlehand it yet but if I do, I'll roll up some of the jib or throw up the standard jib. Furlers are nice but jib changes are a little more work.

Regards,

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 20:09:05

Brian: I strongly recommend that you let her handle the mainsheet and then the tiller, so she understands by feel the relationship between each of them and the heeling of the boat. When you start to heel, tell her to ease up toward the wind (or ease out the sheet), and then do the reverse when you go "flat" and the boat slows down. Pretty soon, she'll get the feeling that heeling corresponds to going, and that it is fully controllable. But in my experience, she has to learn that by doing--not just by watching.

What's a little tougher to demonstrate is that the boat won't "tip over"--virtually ever, no matter what you do. That's the root of the problem. I explained to my wife how as the boat heels, the pressure on the sails is reduced while the leverage from the heavy keel increases such that at some point it can't go any further (unless hit by a big wave at the same time). We had a few "moments" on Long Island Sound that illustrated that quite well, and pretty soon she seemed to be adequately convinced. (Our previous boat was a centerboard daysailer that definitely could capsize, although it never did.)

The "Ah-HAH" moment will come. But letting her feel it and control it is critical to getting her to believe it at a visceral level.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/15/2012 20:11:14

binky
Navigator

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USA
115 Posts

Response Posted - 10/15/2012 : 22:15:31

Good idea Stink, let her feel it first hand. And we sale in the Hampton Roads area (Virginia) with lots of boat/commercial/tug/ship traffic.....we are becoming familiar with the wake.

I actually have a tug docked about 150 feet from my slip. Narrow channel so he comes in very slow and creates a next to nothing wake, on the river, a different story.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 04:09:41

"I know of no better way to relax and restore one's energy and resilience on weekends, so that you can hit the ground running every Monday morning."

After our club's weekend regatta this past weekend, I had to chuckle when I read this. After Saturday's three races with 20+ winds and rough water and Sunday's two races (wind died down to ~15) I hurt all over Monday morning...but it was a good hurt and didn't mind suffering through an Advil Monday. Soreness aside, Steve is absolutely right about the stress relief a weekend of sailing provides.

I had a Catalina 30 in the Hampton Roads area (kept it at Salt Ponds Marina), although I was only there for a season and a half, I loved sailing in the area. Lots of places to go.

Congrats on your new obsession.

Edited by - TCurran on 10/16/2012 04:10:12

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 06:19:08

Congratulations on your new C-25!

Hampton Roads is an interesting place to sail, according to the cruising guides I have read. I sail a C-25 on the same body of water, the Chesapeake Bay, but my marina is about 100 miles north of yours!
I sailed with a friend on his boat for a few years before I bought a boat, and he sailed by the "seat of the pants" method in all weather conditions. In other words, I had a good feel for what the boat could do, but I had a lot to learn. I found that the public libraries in my area had instructional books on sailing, and I read a bunch of them.

One library also had instructional DVD's. I would recommend this DVD series, which I borrowed and found quite useful:

"The Annapolis Book Of Seamanship" DVD Series S9370DVD.
It follows the book of the same name by John Rousmanniere, and it includes:
- Cruising Under Sail,
- Heavy Weather Sailing,
- Safety At Sea,
- Sailboat Navigation
- Daysailers
- Racing

It's easy to watch DVDs like these to learn a bunch of stuff about how to sail your boat. Have fun!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 08:11:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by binky
 ...we are becoming familiar with the wake. I actually have a tug docked about 150 feet from my slip. Narrow channel so he comes in very slow and creates a next to nothing wake, on the river, a different story.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yup! Tugs with no tows can be exceptions to the rule that a displacement hull can't exceed its theoretical hull speed without planing. When they break that "rule", they can create serious vertical waves. When you see a big tug with water churning off the bow like a washing machine, close all hatches, turn to something like 30 degrees from perpendicular to the wake, and get ready for water to possibly come over the bow and cabintop. Once, Passage literally went airborne off the first wave from a tug, and then submarined the second one, leaving several inches of water in the cockpit and two wet sailors! I may have taken it too squarely. An angle off the perpendicular effectively increases the wave-length so you have a better chance of riding over it. The greater the angle, of course, the more you'll roll.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/16/2012 08:19:51

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 13:56:47

In response to teh comments above about sailing being a dying sport, I submit teh following.

Our club just issued its sailing school report in advance of our fall AGM. here are our numbers:

91 Youth Sailing Program Students
79 Basic Cruising (Adult) students
75 Introduction to Sailing (Adult) Students
12 Race Team youth
1 Girl Guide Troop toured the facility on an introduction to sailing day
1 Additional instructor hired due to excess participation.

Sounds pretty healthy here...

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
396 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 17:29:22

Hey Dave - Great suggestion, I think we will try that in the Spring. She is content with helping with the headsail for now and although we don't get heavy wind on the lake, she needs a little more time out before she tackles the mainsail. I'm still learning this keelboat stuff myself, only been a Sunfish/Hobie sailor up until now. We are getting to know the boat beter and better each time we go out. I might do an ASA school this Winter in FL.

Thanks for the advice,

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/16/2012 : 18:19:54

The 20 degree friend is teaching you how to sail, the "cruiser" probably does not know how to sail.

Edited by - on

JeanAndre
Navigator

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USA
224 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2012 : 06:50:19

Hi Binky,
Congratulation on your new boat and welcome to sailing. You will love it I am sure.

You may want to look up ASA schools and ask them for a private class on your boat. Many ASA school offer this option and you can have up to your max capacity boat of family and friends to learn with you. You may also choose not to take the certification exam witch will lower the price a little bit, but some insurance companies may give you a better price if you are ASA certified.

The sailing learning curve is a pretty steep one, You will learn a lot very fast it may help to have somebody who went through a lot to give you some pointers and help you get the most fun out of it and let you know of some cool "tricks" and how to avoid pitfalls.

The more I learn, the less I know!

Cheers

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5371 Posts

Response Posted - 10/17/2012 : 16:13:34

Binky
Welcome. Sounds like you're in the right area in Southeastern VA for a long fall sailing season. I'd endorse taking an ASA course, finding good DVDs and books in the library. Sailing with friends with contrary styles will help you learn better.
I was just reminded of the old saw about sailing you should never forget: "sailing consists of hours of boredom punctuated by moments of terror!". It should never be dull for long.
When I'm out sailing on Passage (yes, Stink passed her on to me - long story), I spend a lot of time handling the lines, sails, tiller, other gear, then I think about the water - the way it looks in the sun, what may be down below, the waves and the color and the light, then I start thinking about the weather and winds, maybe listen to a tune - but I completely lose track of work and cares - purely in the moment. There's nothing else like it for me.
You'll learn and in a few years you'll be advising the new newbies!

Edited by - Voyager on 10/17/2012 16:16:44

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Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.