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Take Swing Keel to Bahamas?

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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/17/2012 : 18:09:23

Anyone have any opinions on taking a swing keel across the channel to the Bahamas in good weather? I dream about cruising around the shallows in the Exumas and other islands.

Seth
"Outlier" 1987 Catalina 25 SR/SK/Traditional Interior #5541
"Zoo" 1977 Morgan Out Island 30
"Nomad" 1980 Prindle 16
"Lost" 1988 Catalina Capri 14.2 (sold - yay!)
"Marine Tex 1" Unknown Origin POS 8' Fiberglass Dinghy
https://whichsailboat.com/2014/07/27/catalina-25-review/

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/17/2012 : 18:30:13

I know Paul (Britinusa) took his C-250 WB over to Bimini a while back. As I recall it wasn't a complete success, the crossings were kinda rough, so you might pick his brain as to what he might do differently.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 10/17/2012 : 19:41:58

See what Paul has to say, but I believe it is not unreasonable if you have the time to wait for weather windows at both ends. I intend to make the trip, but I'll do the Dry Tortugas first since it is a shorter hop. I've made some 40 - 50 mile legs on cruises on Lake Erie and 30 - 40 mile legs in the Gulf. I'm planning a trip for this winter that will entail about 60 miles of open water, but it is all coastal, within 15 - 20 miles, and I won't have a Gulf Stream to cross. I have sailed offshore on some pretty long passages on the West Coast, but that was in a 36 footer and and more than 40 years ago. I'm kind of conservative in undertakings of this nature and believe a 1 day trip needs a 2 day window and careful planning.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/17/2012 : 20:13:39

I haven't done it, but I've heard from people who have...

1. Wait (if necessary) for a forecast of a couple of days with winds that have no northerly component. N, NE, or NW winds oppose the Gulf Stream, squaring up the waves, and generally mean lousy weather, even if it's just over the Stream itself.

2. Find another boat, or some other boats, to go with.

The C-25 is certainly capable in the right weather, and the swinger gives you some flexibility if you mess up an approach, but the Stream can have a nasty temper.

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TCurran
Admiral

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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 04:00:29

As the above post say, pick your weather window very carefully. We have a member at our marina make the crossing in a newer McGregor 26, if that boat can make it, I see no reason why a C25, with perfect weather, can't make it as well.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 04:55:04

If I lived on the other side of the state I wouldn't hesitate to go to the Bahamas.

Here is an old thread with a video of someone making the crossing in 2008.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=22768& SearchTerms=is,this

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 07:19:58

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 Here is an old thread with a video of someone making the crossing in 2008...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Note that he's on port tack. If he's headed east, the wind waves are opposing The Stream--thus the "washing machine" and apparent rain squall ahead.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/18/2012 07:21:57

Davy J
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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 07:41:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Note that he's on port tack. If he's headed east,.....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
They are heading west from Bahamas to Florida.

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Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 09:00:28

I wouldn't hesitate to make the crossing and back, and I might take a swing keeler through the Abacos, but I don't think I'd cruise it through the Exumas. That's a long distance, and you have to cross a lot of open water to get there, and you can't always rely on a favorable weather window on a trip with longish passages. I have a friend who cruised through the Abacos to Nasssau and back in a Com-Pac 23, and he got caught in heavy weather betweeen Nassau and the Abacos, and thought he was lucky to make it, and a Com-Pac 23 is more seaworthy than a pop top, swing keel C25. On balance, I think I'd want a more robust boat for a trip through the Exumas.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 11:04:41

These two made the crossing from Bimini to Miami on stand up paddleboards:

http://blogs.sun-sentinel.com/outdoors-fishing-boat/2012/06/12/paddleboarders-complete-bimini-to-miami-crossing/

Numerous people have done it on jet skis, center consoles and probably some pontoon boats. Just need the right weather.

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Sloop Smitten
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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 14:41:47

Seth,
I have sailed about 3,500 miles on my C-25 in the last 7 years on voyages up to 150 miles or so and have been caught out in some pretty heavy seas and wind. In those early years my inexperience was always the lowest common denominator and not the boat. Seven years later I would say the same thing. I do have a fin keel, not a swing keel, but if your boat is in good working order, and properly maintained, a trip of that sort sounds within the realm of its capabilities. My questions to you would center on the following.
* Does your boat have good standing rig and keel hauling components?
* Is your outboard a problem or an asset?
* Are you comfortable sailing (or motoring) at night? (a lot of the better weather windows appear before dawn.)
* How experienced are you at anchoring?
If you feel comfortable enough with those questions you can probably plan and execute a successful trip. I am sure I, and others, could add to that list but most of us at one time or the other just bit the bullet and went. I wish I had that opportunity. I’d be all over it.

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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/18/2012 : 22:18:10

Am I reading the NOAA charts wrong or is it so shallow between Andros and the Berry Islands that you couldn't sail through from Bimini to New Providence, so that you'd have to sail through the Northwest Providence Channel to reach the Exumas (or sail around far west of the Great Bahama Bank)?

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 04:53:41

The only paper chart I have shows the water between the east coast of Florida to Settlement Point. But the soundings are shown in fathoms not feet.

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JeanAndre
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Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 05:52:35

FWIW here is my though on this:
I have a swing keel too and I was planning a bunch of adventures with it but as I was doing all my planning here is the only fear I have regarding the Swing keel:

I case of a rollover, the keel slamming back down and punching a hole in the hull...

I know we plan for good weather and we are all great sailors to whom a rollover will never happen but, What if...

So I guy in my area was getting rid of a very nice looking fin keel hull (Hull only, no other parts) and he gave it to me. Had I not found a fin keel, I would have found a way to secure the keel in the down position when out of the shallow waters. Maybe one cable on each side of the keel, secured to a midship cleats installed for this purpose a little forward of the forward-most stantion forming a bridle.

Anybody else had this trouble in their minds?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/19/2012 : 08:08:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JeanAndre
 ...the only fear I have regarding the Swing keel: I case of a rollover, the keel slamming back down and punching a hole in the hull... Anybody else had this trouble in their minds?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It has been discussed here... IIRC, Derek Crawford lost his SK C-22 when it broached, the keel swung up into the trunk, and then the boat wouldn't right itself. Now this was on a lake, and he probably had ample rescuers--he's apparently going back to a C-22, so he wasn't too spooked.

However, that is another concern over swing keels for blue-water sailing--the sudden loss of much of their righting moment when you need it most (on your side).

The bridle (cable) will create some drag, especially if it picks up some seaweed, plastic bags, etc., but maybe that's the price of peace-of-mind.

Looking at the video of those two boats, I'd also be a little leery of the general movement of the keel. They appear to be sailing in crossing swells, which create conditions similar to standing waves--like an elevator gone berserk, plus some lurching and yawing. You can see it more clearly with the other boat--the camera is going up and down and yawing with the first boat. Personally, out there, I'd want my keel bolted to the hull, but that's not because I've ever heard of one falling off.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 10/19/2012 08:10:48

cshaw
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Response Posted - 10/20/2012 : 13:55:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by JeanAndre
 FWIW here is my though on this:
I have a swing keel too and I was planning a bunch of adventures with it but as I was doing all my planning here is the only fear I have regarding the Swing keel: In case of a rollover, the keel slamming back down and punching a hole in the hull...

Anybody else had this trouble in their minds?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thought I would toss my 2 cents into the pot since adventures like this can be a lot of fun, or a nightmare, or both, based on my past experiences.

While in California (Ventura) in addition to being a watch captain on a 35 footer for a couple of 970 mile races (Long Beach to LaPaz), we raced Confetti off shore a lot in longer coastal races (including the 81 mile Santa Barbara to King Harbor, and the 125 mile Newport to Ensenada [which also required a 50 mile sail from Ventura down to Newport before the race). Quite often the weather and seas made for tough sailing, but that all part of racing.... The boat stood up better than I did usually!! One time we did snap a rudder in two reaching across big swells and some lumpy seas however, and that was just off shore of Ventura. So, can a Cat 25 make it across? Yes, given the right conditions (just like a number of folks have also stated). But I cannot stress enough that the sea can be VERY unforgiving of not being well prepared. The rigging and the rudder/tiller are a Cat 25's achilles heel IMHO. And it goes without question the pop-top MUST be able to be solidly dogged down

I would take care with a swing keel because of the potential (admittedly low, but with high consequences) to get rolled (we rolled the masthead on our Cat 27 into the water while approaching the entrance to Ventura one day after a Santa Ana wind came up suddenly. The Bahamas do not have Santa Anas, but they can get big thunderstorms that can get exciting. And from being out in the Gulfstream fishing on a buddy's boat, the short steep chop that develops with a north wind (frontal or Thunderstorm) can roll you around pretty good, and worse can slap your stern and drown your outboard. All that sounds scarey, but the point is to be prepared for the worst, and then enjoy yourself and sail conservatively.

Dave5041's suggestion to do the Dry Tortugas as a warmup act is an excellent suggestion I think....

Tom mentioned a Mac 26 made it. No doubt it was during good weather. We had a Venture 24 (very similar boat) when we moved to California, and after one day out in the Pacific I decided to get something a LOT more substantial (and moved to a Cat 27 inboard). Lots of people have indeed make it in pretty flimsy craft, but like I said, the sea can be a fickle and unforgiving mistress! So like the Boy scouts say, "Be Prepared"!

Chuck

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 10/21/2012 : 15:09:38

I read a blog of three people who did it in a West Wight Potter 15. I think that might be the edge of the envelope, but not my envelope.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 10/21/2012 : 19:51:22

Ya, the world has been circumnavigated in a 12 footer.

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Frank Law
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Response Posted - 10/24/2012 : 14:13:00

A friend of mine made the trip 3-4 times in a 22' swing keel (not catalina) .. He always went at night ,saying the winds and waves were steadier . and avoided the hot sun.. He stayed in Fla. till the right weather window came.. He is an airline pilot..

Frank Law
"About Time"
1983 # 3519
SR , SWK

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Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/25/2012 : 09:41:07

I'd do it if I was down there. I'd choose my weather window very carefully and only depart under perfect conditions and a reliable forecast....then pedal to the metal and boogie straight through, with plenty of folks knowing where I'm going, when I should arrive, and a plan to contact folks at specified times. I'd have appropriate safety gear, epirb, radios, etc.

It's been done on far less capable/comfortable vessels.....but I'd love to have my C25 in the Bahamas for a while!

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sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 10/27/2012 : 10:10:32

So I've been thinking some more about the moving keel issue if the weather turned bad on the crossing. Should that happen, and I became concerned about broaching, then I believe I should crank the keel up so that it cannot move, fixing it in the up position.

Although the keel lifting hardware is less stout than the bronze pivot hardware, that's okay because it will never support more than 50% of the weight of the keel (unlike the pivot hardware which must support the entire weight of the keel). If the keel is cranked all the way up, then the keel cannot move and so the lifting hardware cannot be subjected to much if any shock loads (which could happen if the keel was cranked partially up). And If my lifting hardware is in good shape (mine's brand new), then I can be less concerned about it breaking and the keel swinging down against the front of the trunk with great force.

By cranking up the keel, I do raise the boat's center of gravity but it's not like I've lost my ballast. The boat just becomes more tender and has a faster inherent roll period.

I'm going, just as soon as I rebuild my outboard with a longer drive shaft, clean the carbs on my outboard, tighten up the standing rigging, fix the hatch-boards, the one of the latches on the forward hatch, and one of the latches on the pop-top, and buy some extra gas cans, an EPIRB, an extra VHF radio, an extra iPad, solar power generation hardware, some kind of life raft, and a bigger boat (just kidding).

I plan to do the Dry Tortugas trip first, like Dave suggests. I plan to pull up next to one of those sometimes submerged little islands and recreate a Corona commercial.

Edited by - sethp001 on 10/27/2012 10:12:55

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 10/27/2012 : 10:53:09

Seth, you won't find many around here who will disagree with your plan to sail your C25 swinger across the Gulf Stream to the Bahamas, but you won't find many who will agree with your plan to do it with the keel retracted. In your first paragraph, you said: <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> So I've been thinking some more about the moving keel issue if the weather turned bad on the crossing. Should that happen, and I became concerned about broaching, then I believe I should crank the keel up so that it cannot move, fixing it in the up position.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you are concerned about broaching, that means the boat is becoming unstable and likely to roll over, and cranking up the keel will make it even more unstable, and more likely to roll over. Retracting the keel would be the worst thing you could do. The action that you take should be calculated to reduce the likelihood of a broach, rather than to increase it. The better choice would be to reduce the boat's speed, by reducing sail area, and perhaps by streaming a drogue and running downwind, or perhaps by heaving to. Anything you do to reduce speed will reduce the likelihood of a broach. If the conditions become that severe, you should be prepared to abandon your plan to complete the crossing.

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JeanAndre
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Response Posted - 10/27/2012 : 14:27:05

I agree with Steve,

NO KEEL UP... The keel balances the weight aloft from the mast even when no sails are up.

Without the keel down to dampen the rolling, each wave will make it roll farther... Get the picture?

Choose your weather carefully. take a life raft and Expect the best but be preapred for the worst.
I am sure it will be a great experience!!!!

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 10/30/2012 : 21:07:14

I think there was an article in Catalina Mainsheet once upon a time about some lunatic taking a C25 swing keel to the Abaco islands back in 2003.

Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 10/30/2012 21:24:34

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