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Offshore Overboard Waste Dump

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Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/03/2012 : 18:23:41

Hey Everyone,

I live in LA and get to sail offshore, I want to rig my head to dump overboard, where allowed of course. I have a '78 25 Standard Rig which currently has a head/waste tank/pump out system with no option for direct dumping overboard. My terrible LA marina charges $10 per pump out which is crazy given its only a 14 gallon tank and the very next marina 5 miles over has free pump out, so Im motivated.

I was thinking of simply adding a separate waste line, on a valve stemming off the existing line, down through the bilge, to the existing bilge pump exit on the stern by the rudder. I was also going to rig another valve to switch between bilge and waste dumps, given I will use the same exit for both.

The only problem I see is the waste dump hose diameter is much larger than the bilge pump hose diameter, which would require some reducers.

Does anybody have any insight into this project? It seems pretty straightforward but, as always, there could be something Im missing.

Edited by - Sam Cyphers on 12/11/2012 15:23:24

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 20:48:37

I suspect you're going to end up with some "stuff" in your bilge.

When your bilge pump pushes some water up and out, cleaning some stuff out of that shared line, some will flow back when it stops.

The normal setup is a Y-valve that switches between a line to the deck pump-out fitting and a line to a mascerator, which serves as a pump that pushes the stuff to a thru-hull. Any residual from either flows back to the holding tank. I'd add a thru-hull and keep everything separate.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/03/2012 21:00:17

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/03/2012 : 21:23:46

To be legal the thru hull must be of the lockable variety. I strongly also recommend the macerator pump. Emptying a 14 gallon tank will take about half a minute with a 30 gpm macerator. Momentary switch and you can do it down and dirty. I know cruisers who pull the hook daily and run out just far enough to hit the button and then turn around and come back. keeps them sharp, they say.

sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 08:44:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 To be legal the thru hull must be of the lockable variety...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Do you mean the Y-valve? I believe mine has a "lock"--a pair of holes that align in the deck pump-out position so a tag can be wired to the valve to prevent switching to the macerator/thru-hull. I recall hearing something like Canada requiring that such systems be officially "tagged" while in their waters. Then tampering with the tag is evidence of a violation. I'm not aware of this being used or required in US or international waters--am I missing something?

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 10:54:50

While cruising around the Caribbean just off the Cayman islands way back in my Navy days, the captain announced a swim call. The day was absolutely perfect with sunny skies and deep blue, clear water that was like a sheet of glass, simply amazing. Before anyone could go over the side, the RHIB boat, with the required safety personnel and armed shark spotters, was deployed and a single Jacob's ladder was secured near the stern on the starboard side. When all was ready, the command was given to commence swim call and about 25 or so eager sailor's, including me, began jumping over the side from a height of about 10-12 feet.

The water was simply fantastic, perfect temperature, clear like a pool yet turning the deepest shade of blue over what seemed like a bottomless abyss. When I dove beneath the surface I could see perfectly the ship's two massive props and wrapped tightly around one of the prop shafts was a heaving line, complete with a monkey's fist, that is normally used when entering or leaving port, but the interesting thing about this particular one was that I had personally lost it a few months prior when preparing to get underway. Long story short, I was wetting it over the side and it got sucked under when the bridge was making test revolutions on the shafts.

Anyway, all of us sailor's were enjoying the swim call, with some climbing back up the ladder to again jump in from the height of the ship. Lot's of hooting and hollering. Ah, life was good! Then suddenly, and without warning, about 20-30 feet from where we were swimming in the pristine sea, a solid stream of a brownish liquid under pressure started shooting out from a 4-5" circular hole in the side of the ship. A ship has many overboard discharge openings, but this was no ordinary overboard discharge point mind you, but rather one connected to the ship's Collection, Holding, and Transfer (CHT) system. If you're thinking CHT is awfully close to $H1T, you're a winner. Apparently, the holding tanks became full from the around 400 or so crew, and well, when a ship's gotta go, it's gotta go.

From the moment the rather raw sewage came shooting out with what seemed to be the force of a firehouse, a dense, brown, somewhat chunky-style cloud started radiating outwards directly towards us swimmers. Almost immediately, those on deck started screaming, (or laughing hysterically, I'm not sure which), for us to get out of the water, as if we needed to be told! Next was a scene out of a shark movie where everyone in the water stopped moving for a nanosecond, then simultaneously making a beeline for the base of the Jacob's ladder. While my shipmates and I were at the base of the ladder treading water waiting for our turn up, those furthest from it were yelling things like "Go, Go, GO", "Hurry", "Move it" as if there were Great White sharks circling just below their feet.

Fortunately, we all made it safely back aboard without suffering any turd casualties.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 11:30:13

Our 1984 C-25 appeared to have it's original holding tank configuration, which had the Y-valve before the tank and no provisions for emptying the tank at sea.

If you look at the manual for any good marine head (like the Raritan PHII manuals available online) you'll see the suggested routing these days for being able to empty the tank. That configuration has the head always go to the tank, then a Y-valve at the tank's outflow that goes to either a macerator and through hull, or to the deck pumpout. While you are working on the system you'll probably want to inspect and likely replace the waste lines too. Expect to spend a few hundred or more on new waste lines, tank vent line, macerator pump, and potentially a new Y valve. I just went through all of this replacing the entire toilet system (tank, toilet, plumbing, only the original pump is the same) on our Pearson 28-2. Instead of the Y valve we have two dip tubes, one going to the pump and one going to the deck fitting. This is more failure safe and a little cheaper.

If you want the most flexibility you'd use 2 Y valves to allow the toilet to flush to the tank first or directly overboard. That would get pretty hard to setup in the tight spaces available on the C-25.

Edited by - on

blanik
Navigator

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Canada
210 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 16:52:52

given the fact that you come back to a marina after each outing, i would just bite the bullet and pay for the pump out for the following reasons:

even at a limited 14 gals you're good for many "dumps" so it means a pump out every 3-4 outings at worst so given the price of all the parts needed, the time needed to do it, the risk of having residual odors from a long hose and having an unnecessary extra hole in the hull a 10$ pop once a month or so doesn't seem abusive

plus it keep the ocean a tad cleaner ;-P

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 18:26:30

I thought of that but I find myself needing to pump after every other outing. I entertain on the boat frequently, 5 young guys with a couple of cases of beer will get the tank close to full in a day for sure. I dont want to put an extra hole in the hull though. Being in LA means I dont pull the boat from the water unless absolutely necessary, and this doesnt qualify.

I think 2 Y valves, one before the tank and one after the bilge pump will hopefully deal with most of the liquid waste, maybe put a macerator in just in case. I wouldnt use the bilge pump until necessary. Ive been gifted with a bone-dry bilge boat and have only needed to turn it on once.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 21:23:47

Don,
Not sure I can top your story, but I've had my own run in with a CHT tank while underway. We had a pump fail inside the CHT tank, couldn't reliably pump overboard. The auxiliary pump was used to pump down the CHT tank, then it was filled with sea water & flushed twice to try to clean out the umm, crap. Then we opened the hatch and used a firehose to knock down the crapsicles that were hanging everywhere inside the tank, filled it about halfway to just below the manway, and then flushed it again. Then all of the hull techs (turd chasers) drew straws, same for the electricians (me included), I got the short one, and so the two of us went & put on our crappiest dungarees, T-shirts, socks, etc. and in we went to fix the pump. There's nothing quite like wondering what just dripped down your neck to encourage you to move right along. We finally got the job done, and headed up to the fantail. Doc gave us a gallon of Betadine to use for soap, we stripped naked & just tossed our clothes over the stern. Then they turned a firehose on us on "spray" so we could scrub down. The only thing we kept was our boots, which got a thorough scrubbing with the Betadine. I still occasionally dream about that day, and the turd chaser I went into the CHT tank with is one of my friends on FB and we still joke about it.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 21:50:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier
 While cruising around the Caribbean just off the Cayman islands way back in my Navy days....... and well, when a ship's gotta go, it's gotta go.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I only occasionally LOL at stuff on my screen, but that one did it!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/04/2012 : 22:17:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 I think 2 Y valves, one before the tank and one after the bilge pump will hopefully deal with most of the liquid waste, maybe put a macerator in just in case. I wouldnt use the bilge pump until necessary.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't get your system. Are you planning to circumvent that tank entirely? What will pump the stuff out?

There's no reason you can't put a hole in the transom (or the side) above the waterline while in the water. You might need a dinghy to install and bed the through-hull in the side--on the transom, you might be able to do it from the swim ladder. But I'd shorten the run as much as possible--meaning to the side, pumping from the holding tank with a Y-valve to a macerator (and pumping only when not heeling to that side, to prevent siphon action).

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 10:31:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">5 young guys with a couple of cases of beer will get the tank close to full in a day for sure.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have always taken the stance, when sailing in the ocean, the toilet is for women or "loosening a load". The men use this:

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 11:03:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 I thought of that but I find myself needing to pump after every other outing. I entertain on the boat frequently, 5 young guys with a couple of cases of beer will get the tank close to full in a day for sure.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Why don't they just pee over the side?

What does your marina charge to empty a porta-potty. That might be a cheaper solution.

Edited by - on

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 11:16:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 [quote]The men use this:.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

But how do you fix it to the Guard Rail?

Paul

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 16:35:49

Yes, I was going to circumvent the tank. Wouldnt the pressure used to pump the waste from the head to the tank be the same as pumping it from the head to the bilge exit?

Also, I didnt realize putting a hole in the transom would be so easy. I have drilled, epoxy, and bedded deck hardware and stanchions, I guess its not too much different. Any other advice on putting a hole in the hull? <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sam Cyphers
 I think 2 Y valves, one before the tank and one after the bilge pump will hopefully deal with most of the liquid waste, maybe put a macerator in just in case. I wouldnt use the bilge pump until necessary.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't get your system. Are you planning to circumvent that tank entirely? What will pump the stuff out?

There's no reason you can't put a hole in the transom (or the side) above the waterline while in the water. You might need a dinghy to install and bed the through-hull in the side--on the transom, you might be able to do it from the swim ladder. But I'd shorten the run as much as possible--meaning to the side, pumping from the holding tank with a Y-valve to a macerator (and pumping only when not heeling to that side, to prevent siphon action).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 16:52:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">5 young guys with a couple of cases of beer will get the tank close to full in a day for sure.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have always taken the stance, when sailing in the ocean, the toilet is for women or "loosening a load". The men use this:

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Couple thoughts with using these as well as releasing overboard.
1. I take issue with my idiot friends accidentally peeing on my boat (and inevitably in the cockpit given anywhere else is too difficult under sail).
2. I also have no interest in sharing that jug with others, or buying five and trying to label and store those.
3. Lastly, going over the transom means you expose yourself and your deed to other boats in the busy LA harbor, so but multiply that by five friends, then multiply it by the hundreds of boats out on a sunny southern california day. Its too obtrusive, too disrespectful. Middle of the ocean is obviously fine, but otherwise just take care of yourself down below and we can all sail happily.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 18:29:26

If it's as crowded as you make it sound maybe you should leave the beer ashore and drink it when you get back. That would solve most of the problem.

Another alternative would be to have your friends bring their own container to use.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/05/2012 : 23:47:04

How are you 3 miles from shore and in the LA harbor at the same time? It looks like the breakwater is less than 2 miles from shore on maps. Outside of the harbor is it really so crowded that peeing over the side is a concern?

In Seattle peeing over the side is pretty common. However there is nowhere within a one day sail where it is legal to dump. On a C-25 it is probably more like a two day sail or crossing the border into BC.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 07:05:36

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 ...However there is nowhere within a one day sail where it is legal to dump. On a C-25 it is probably more like a two day sail or crossing the border into BC.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...where I think you get life for doing it.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 10:02:31

Sadly it is the other way around. BC barely has pump outs and major cities like Victoria still pump all of their untreated waste into the Strait of Juan de Fuca. They are finally scheduled to build a sewage treatment plant instead.

I was going to pull the macerator pump completely from our boat and toss it (since it is useless for local sailing) until I talked to some local cruisers who said it is nearly impossible to find pump outs in BC. The published list of stations confirm this, all of BC has about as many pumpout stations as metropolitan Seattle does.

I know that Canada is very strict about dumping in lakes, but they don't seem to extend this to coastal waters.

Edited by - on

piseas
Former Treasurer

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USA
2017 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 16:27:40

Sam, Welcome. I sail out of Newport. Do you ever get down my way? RE your post, have you thought of another solution- to replace with a porta potty? I have always used one and can dump in the bathrooms at my marina which has free pump out stations. And at the price we pay for a slip, they should!

Steve A

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 17:30:50

Sam' Can you change the header " Overhead Waste Dump" I keep thinking, Who would want to have a waste dump overhead?

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
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Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 19:03:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by piseas
 Sam, Welcome. I sail out of Newport. Do you ever get down my way? RE your post, have you thought of another solution- to replace with a porta potty? I have always used one and can dump in the bathrooms at my marina which has free pump out stations. And at the price we pay for a slip, they should!

Steve A
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I can't believe no one has suggested this as an option. Never even crossed my mind!

Buy an extra waste tank and you can have plenty of storage. All easily transported to the restroom or home to dump.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/06/2012 : 19:41:21

I thought the porta-potty had been mentioned, but indeed it's simpler and less objectionable than some might imagine. We used one on Passage. (No pump-out options available where we were in the beginning.)

As for the $10, we have a free pump-out boat on the Mystic River--I radio him and he arrives at my dock. I tip him $10, which is about the total of what I'd pay at a gas dock--$5 fee and $5 tip. Think about it--what they're doing for you.

Then get your friends to keep it to #1 on board, and tell them not to pump a bunch of water into the head. Or tell them to leave a buck in the cup when they do otherwise. "It ain't your momma's bathroom!"

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/06/2012 19:43:22

Sam Cyphers
1st Mate

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USA
29 Posts

Response Posted - 12/11/2012 : 12:17:38

I love this idea of leaving some cash on the boat! Problem solved!

Edited by - on

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