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New boat - some questions

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kc5dlo
1st Mate

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USA
71 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/14/2012 : 07:26:30

I recently purchased an '89 wing keel. Spent a few week ends getting the trailer in shape, polishing the hull, preping and adding a coat of bottom paint, etc. I now have the the boat in a slip close to home.

I have been looking through the great info here but I do have a few questions to ask. I have used the search function here and pomise not to threaten anyones post counts.

The first questions are more general about batteries. The boat came equiped with 2 batteries and a selector switch. One of the batteries is bad. I am not sure if I will even need 2 batteries or not as I dont expect many overnite sails as the house is so close to the boat. If I do decide to purchase a new battery, I can buy a marine battery with 12 months free replacement, or a car battery with 3 years free replacement for about the same cost. My thought is to go with the car battery and longer warranty despite the car battery not being the better suited for the use. Is my thinking here flawed?

On the interior lights, There is a switch on the light in the forward vee berth as well as over the sink in the head. The light in the quarter berth is always on (as long as the the lighting switch on the main panel is on). The two lights on either side of the main cabin will come on if you tap on them. I dont think this is the way they are intended to work though. Is there supposed to be a switch on each fixture?

The first time I put the main up, I was a little disapointed because the end of the boom dips down quite abit taking up head room.
I am thinking that I may have a tall rig. Is there a simple way to tell what rig I have? Either way i will end up getting the sail recut or have a new sail made with out the lower boom.

Last question is how much did these boats cost new back in the late '80s?

Thanks again for this great information source.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 08:05:02

Battery - a couple questions, and a couple ideas. Are your batteries set up with a starting battery/house battery, and if so is it the starting battery for the outboard that is dead? If it is the house battery, you need a deep cycle, so there is no point looking at a car battery, although you might consider an RV deep cycle which would also offer no advantage, and likely cost about the same.

All that aside, I would go with the marine grade battery. This article: http://www.yachtsurvey.com/boat_battery_basics.htm will explain much of the confusion with batteries. The whole thing is worth reading, but the bit you care about is under the heading "Battery types".

With regards to lights, I chose to replace most of my original lights with individually switchable aftermarket lights. I would not put in a light that was 'always on' although there is a savings to be had in buying those. If it is LED it may not have as large of an impact. OTOH, I always leave my galley light 'on' but turn off the cabin power when I don't need lights. This way, when I come to the boat at night, as soon as I hit that breaker the boat is lit up. Much better than fumbling in the dark for a light switch. Perhaps this was your PO's thinking.

I would replace the lights that come on with a tap.

Rather than having your sail recut, borrow a Standard Rig main, and see if it raises the boom enough for you. Then buy a SR Main. If that works for you you are keeping the value of teh other sail, and when you want the extra performance, you can put it back up. Watch the swap for good used sails. They come up regularly.

New these boats were worth $5,000,000 as they were luxury yachts ;)

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 08:21:02

First, there are a number of Texas folks here, and some might be close to you. Batteries: deep cycle batteries are constructed differently for slow draw and periodic recharge, car batteries are designed for a short, high draw and immediate recharge. Get a deep cycle. You don't need a combo deep cycle/starting battery for the current draw of a 9.9 outboard. I have had really good service from Walmart batteries. 1 battery will be fine. Add another later if you change conditions. TR: My basic approach is that if the boom will knock you unconscious in a tack, it's a tall rig since the boom is a foot lower on the TR. Really, attach a tape securely to the main halyard, run it up the mast and measure to the bottom of the mast. Does the "89 have a sliding or fixed gooseneck (where the boom attaches to the mast)? Tensioning the luff with a down haul will correct the boom angle with a sliding gooseneck. A topping lift will level the boom, but it won't do you any favors if the sail is stretched. All lights should have switches. Some after-market lights have an internal switch that you activate by pressing on the diffuser or globe. If you mean that it comes on when you tap it anywhere, that is not a good thing.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 08:30:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Rather than having your sail recut, borrow a Standard Rig main, and see if it raises the boom enough for you. Then buy a SR Main.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Hmmm... Isn't the gooseneck on the '89 fixed at the mast, not sliding in the kerf as in the earlier years? To raise the boom, you'd have to re-mount it. Then you'd need to be concerned with the position of the gate for the slugs--how high above the boom is it now?

On the other hand, the sail could be cut for a slightly upward-angled boom, and the topping lift adjusted accordingly for when the sail is furled. That would add some headroom in the cockpit. (Some off-shore racers are built that way.) Just make sure the boom clears the backstay.

Good advice from Chris on the batteries--you probably don't need two, but if you replace one, you should replace the other (or take it out). Marine batteries are generally made with heavier-duty plates that can withstand more abuse without warping from being drawn down without charging. Car batteries expect an engine to be running most of the time they're under load--a few fast, deep discharges and they're toast. I only had one battery on my C-25, but my usage didn't require more. My Honda had a strong alternator that kept the battery up for my purposes. LED lights ($$$) can reduce your power requirements dramatically.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/14/2012 08:37:55

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 09:11:21

I agree with Chris with regard to the choice of battery. (A deep cycle battery.)

With questions like this, we never know for sure if your boat has original equipment lights or if they were replaced with something else by the previous owner, but, assuming they are stock, each should have a switch. If they stay on all the time, it sounds like there is a short somewhere. You might be able to remove each of them and check it for a short, and to clean the contacts, and try to get them working again, but my inclination would be to try to find replacements.

Catalina Direct and Westmarine both sell cabin lights, but I recently replaced a light fixture in my engine compartment, and found that you can buy them much cheaper at your local recreational vehicle store. I think I paid less than $10. for a plain fixture with a switch.

As I recall, the list price when I bought my C25 new in 1981 was about $22,000, including EZ Loader trailer. I bought a lot of options with mine, because I knew at the time that I would keep it for a long time, and amortize their cost.

Your boat sounds like a tall rig. The length of the luff on a standard rig mainsail is about 24.5 ft. The luff on the TR mainsail is about 27.5 ft. The standard rig mast is 28 ft high, while the TR mast is 30 ft high.

The boom on a tall rig is 1' lower than on a standard rig, and, although the low boom can be an annoyance at times, the increased sail area makes it a real joy to sail when the wind goes light, or when sailing downwind.

If you don't like the low boom, there are lots of ways that you can deal with it. Some people buy a standard rig sail, but that gives up a lot of sail area.

Or, you can order a new sail with a luff length of 25.5', in which case you are not giving up as much sail area, but you will have spent a lot for a bastardized sail.

My suggestion is that you have a flattening reef and perhaps a cunningham grommet installed in your existing sail. That will enable you to tuck in a short reef, which will allow you to raise the boom by 1'. Then, if the wind is light, and you want to be able to raise all the sail area that you have, you can shake out the reef.

I believe Dave is correct that your boat has a fixed boom, but, as I recall, it isn't difficult to convert to a sliding boom.

I learned to respect the low boom, and loved the light air performance of the boat, but each of us sees it differently.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 12/14/2012 09:15:23

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 09:56:06

The mast is 30' long on the tall, 28' on standard. You can measure with a tape attached to a halyard. I've read, but haven't confirmed, that a Capri 25 mainsail has the desired luff length to raise the boom 1' on a tall mast C-25. It sounds like your main is stretched out and at the end of its useful life.

One battery is fine if you have an outboard. You can always pull start the motor. You do want a deep cycle battery though.

My 1984 Catalina 25 had the original receipt. It was $25k give or take without a trailer, but with just about every other option. It was a fin keel, tall mast, dinette, with marine head. It had a furler at one point, but I don't know if it was original.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 10:00:43

One more thought: Perhaps your main isn't going all the way up the mast. If it stopped a few inches from the top that would let the boom hang down lower in the back and would create a large draft, looking like the sail was stretched out. Make sure that your bowline is small and tight or that the shackle that you are using is compact.

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1181 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 10:25:16

I seem to remember that a tall rig mast is the same one used on the C27 and is actually larger in circumference. It would be great if someone could measure the circumference of both to see if this is true. That way, in the future, when this question is asked we could have them measure the circumference rather then having to hoist a tape to the top of the mast. I would also like to confirm if this is true or just another old wife's tale.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 11:12:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 I seem to remember that a tall rig mast is the same one used on the C27 and is actually larger in circumference. It would be great if someone could measure the circumference of both to see if this is true. That way, in the future, when this question is asked we could have them measure the circumference rather then having to hoist a tape to the top of the mast. I would also like to confirm if this is true or just another old wife's tale.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This question used to come up frequently, but it hasn't recently. I never measured the various masts, but at my lake, we had tall rig and standard rig C27s, as well as tall rig and standard rig C25s, and when you compared them side-by-side, it was plainly apparent that the cross-section of both the tall rig and standard rig C25 masts were smaller than the mast of either version of C27. It's an old wive's tale.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 11:28:55

I didn't even think about hte fixed gooseneck in later models - thanks for pointing that out guys. Ours has the sliding gooseneck, making sail swapping easier - We could sail with the main off a Sunfish hoisted to the masthead if we wanted to.

Edited by - on

sfsmith
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 11:52:07

Steve, if your lights are like mine, you slide the whole housing to turn them on and off. It's a bit tricky. My lights have three settings, in this order: dim, off and bright. There shouldn't be any that stay on all the time.

I don't have a battery selector switch, but I do like having two batteries. One is a starting battery wired only to the motor, which recharges it. The other is for everything else, and is charged by a solar panel. Both are marine batteries; the cabin one is deep cycle. I think it's worth the extra money for marine-grade batteries.

We had our main cut down for the same reasons you're considering it. We've never regretted it. I think we had about 10" taken off, and it made a huge difference the the quality of life onboard. I replaced the fixed mount on the gooseneck with a sliding mount. It works great. But Prospector's advice about borrowing a standard main is a great idea, if you can work it out.

Good luck.

Edited by - on

glivs
Admiral

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USA
836 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 12:37:19

Check the lights that you can tap to turn on. As sfsmith noted the original lights in the salon (rectangular shape) were 3-position (low-off-high) in which the entire housing was moved to switch positions. At best it was quirky.

Battery - one deep cycle is essential. Its life, regardless of which brand you buy, will depend on how well it is cared for. Letting a battery sit partially discharged for any significant length of time will notably shorten its life. Moreover if connected (i.e. wired in parallel or through a selector switch) the less charged battery will differentially drain or take a charge thus causing its paired mate to prematurely degrade. Most therefore would recommend keeping only one battery (or, if replacing only one of two, ensuring they are wired/charged independently) or simultaneously replace both batteries so that they are of the same age and experience approximately similar discharge. Good luck.

Edited by - glivs on 12/14/2012 12:39:15

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 14:22:44

What is the sail number on the main? Does it match the HIN scratched on the transom? I don't think there were any tall rigs in '89.

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4024 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 14:44:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">New these boats were worth $5,000,000 as they were luxury yachts ;)<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Hmmmm, I must have over paid for mine, I believe it was somewhere around $5.2M but then again I got the gold plated keel.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 16:49:52

I also have an '89 and mine is a tall rig. The boom to mast attachment is fixed on my boat. Although, as others have indicated the TR boom is located about 1' lower on the mast than the SR, I have never had an issue where I was in danger of getting hit by the boom. I agree with Alex's comment regarding that you may not have the sail all the way up the mast and that could be why the boom seems to droop lower at the stern. The other thing is that on my boat and probably on yours, you should have a topping lift that holds the boom horizontal after you disconnect the pigtail cable that connects the end of the boom to the aft stay holding the boom higher up when the boat sits dockside. When I leave the dock, I detach the pigtail from my boom and the topping lift holds the boom parallel as i motor out of the marina. Then when I hoist the main sail, I believe the main sail by itelf holds the boom up but topping lift is always connected and would always prevent the boom from drooping...so I do not see how your boom could droop below the horizontal if your topping lift is properly adjusted/connected.

In regards to the 2 batteries and one being dead. I would just use the one battery. Chances are that your setup just has the 2 batteries in parallel with no battery combiner/isolater and so if you were to buy a new battery, then having one new and one of questioable age and remainig capacity, that is not the best setup. Both batteries should be of same age/remaining capacity especially if you use the batteries with the battery switch in the "both" setting. If you only use one battery and keep the other isolated, then not such an ssue with one new and one old. But you could just forgo replacing the bad battery and then put the battery switch to the position to only make use of the one battery you will have remaining onboard. I would go the one battery route for now and see how that works for you.

Those lights should not just work by tapping on them. They should be similar to mine which you move the housing forward or aft to get one or both bulbs to turn on. The middle position is off. Try pushing forward, then aft and then half-way forward should get the light to turn off. If it does not, then there is something wrong with the switching terminals. You could just remove the dome, pull out the bulbs and re-install the dome as a temporary fix until you have time to attend to the switching mechanism or replace the light fixture altogether.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 18:55:50

The contacts in the fixture probably need to be cleaned. The '89 definitely has the sliding fixtures and one of mine has to be in the right spot to stay on or off. The other one works fine.

You mentioned you wouldn't be sailing much at night so one battery should be fine. I had one go bad and removed it. I could sail 3 or 4 hours using just the nav lights and I'd still have plenty of battery left when I got back to the dock. And that was with a 2 or 3 year old battery.

The '89 does have a fixed gooseneck.

Who did you buy your boat from? Does/did it have a name? I looked at several '89's on Lake Grapevine when I was looking for my boat. Most of them were tall rigs and I'm betting yours is too!

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2012 : 04:34:40

kc5dlo

I sent you an e-mail with some info

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2012 : 08:17:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by kc5dlo
 ...The wiring has had me both shaking my head and laughing a little. Every splice was simply twisted together and wrapped with electrical tape. For example, the original wiring to the old outboard had 2 peices of white, solid cunductor 12 gauge wire twisted to a 3 foot piece of of red and black 8 gauge cable which was then twisted to about a six foot piece of 12 gauge romex. Every wire to and fromm the battery switch was white and nothing marked.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm glad you see the nonsense in that! Congratulations--you chose a fine boat--the '89-91 in particular is possibly the best value in a 25' cruising sailboat ever built!

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2012 : 04:43:38

Steve,

Yes - The electrical wiring is something to behold on thse boats. Many have modified the original wiring due to addl load requirements or preferences. The Cat 25 manuals referenced on the left of this bulletin board contain schematics of the basic way most of our electrical wiring was supposed to resemble. My outboard cabling ends with terminals and these terminals are bolted to cabling that then leads to the battery/battery switch. The mechanical bolted terminals are each either wrapped in electrical tape or heat shrink rubber to protect against shorts. Also, check to ensure cabling is protected by a fuse.

The wiring changes behind the original switch panel may have some rather unsafe addl wiring that has been hooked up overloading the original wiring to the terminals. Some terminals may have split terminals added that effectively allows 2 or 3 wires to share a switch panel terminal. However, these split terminals may come very close or touch the switch panel positive rod/wire that feeds to all the switches and that can lead to unsafe, always on and/or connections that bypass the breaker or fuses. The split terminals that should be checked for safety and possibly removed is shown in below photo where 3 wires work off one switch panel terminal but are very close/touch the common positive rod internal to the switch panel. I added a new switch panel to reduce the overload situation and to have a panel where the nav lights were more accessible from when I was in the cockpit (and located it just below sink). Addl photos of the old and new switch panels are on my website. But the below photo was taken when I was in the midst of removing some of the loads off the old panel and relocating to the new panel.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2012 : 07:25:48

If you have the fixed gooseneck, borrow a sail off a SR C-25 anyways, and hoist it without a boom. This is a quick way to determine whether or not it is worth it for you to go to the effort of the new gooseneck and cutting down sails.

You can tie down the bottom corners of the sail to get a feel for its height, just don't try to sail with it like that. For me I have to see something in place to fully appreciate it. If you do this and the sail ends up at the same spot as your existing setup, then you know you have a SR.

SR vs TR is a pretty common conversation around here, although not one we have rehashed lately. The question tends to be 'which one is better?' and the answer is where do you sail, and what are you looking for in your boat?

A TR is designed to catch wind up high so if you sail close to shore like on a small lake, in protected bays, or in light airs a lot, the TR is better - unless you are looking for a cruising boat where you can move around easily without the boom in the way.

SR boats have less sail area, so you won't need to reef as early. They are designed for open water, so if you sail on big lakes, or in coastal areas where there is more exposure to the wind, a SR is likely a better choice, however; they also have the higher boom, which means an inland sailor can 'partyboat' without ducking under the boom as much (you still have to duck).

When we had the boat on Lake Simcoe, then moved to Lake Ontario, this was really brought home for me. On Lk Simcoe, we always used our 155% genoa for a headsail, and were rarely overpowered. We could head out in 30kt winds with a single reef and a 110% jib, and sail beautifully. In similar conditions on Lake Ontario where the winds are lower, and the weaves bigger, I am finding that I need to downsize my sail selection and put in more reefs. Having moved from one lake to another makes me appreciate the need for the different rigs, and the understanding of what sail plan to use when.

I don't believe one rig is advantageous over the other, but I do believe that understanding which rig is appropriate for your venue and your sailing style is important.

Edited by - Prospector on 12/18/2012 07:29:54

redeye
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 12/19/2012 : 05:10:28

<< Having moved from one lake to another makes me appreciate the need for the different rigs, and the understanding of what sail plan to use when >>

I thought I was on an inland lake and that a tall rig would be better... Turns out I usually go sailing on this lake when a front is blowing through. Not only is a standard rig favored, but I often reef. I'd rather have had an even smaller mainsail.

I've always wanted a spinnaker and the local sail maker basically said no need, just use a cruising chute. The land is pretty high around the lake and the wind direction changes so much there is no downwind run.

Edited by - redeye on 12/19/2012 09:17:39

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2012 : 08:20:30

The simplest way to tell if you have a tall rig or not is to tie a small loop in one end of a length of line and mark off 28 ft. Then attach the loop to your main or jib halyard and run the line to the top of the mast. If the 28 ft. mark is at the base of the mast, you have a std rig, if it is about 2 ft above the deck, you have a tall rig.
I would not change the fixed gooseneck, but do look into installing a mast gate if your boat does not have one.
We had a tall rig and it is possible to install a bimini on it, you just won't have stand-up headroom under it. Also, I recommend purchasing a bimini that installs on top of the coaming, so you will have room to walk when you need to go forward. We were able to use the bimini from our C-22 (measures 36" H and 72" long) but we had to intstall it in the middle of the deck between the coaming and the genoa track for it to work. That made it difficult to go forward when it was open. The other option is to buy one wide enough to attach to cars on the genoa track, but that adds to the expense. for the coaming mount, get the slide tracks so you can adjust the position of the bimini.
One nice thing about our bimini set-up, positioned so it was midway between the vang and the mainsheet, was that I could stand up behind it and still steer the boat, see telltales, etc. when I needed to.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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USA
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Response Posted - 12/21/2012 : 12:28:02

MRBF style fuses mount directly to the battery, aren't too expensive, and are trivial to install. I recommend just getting one of those (or two if you run two batteries). Size them for the wiring and you'll be good to go.

Circuit breakers are nice if you need the switching ability or expect to trip them often, but you shouldn't need either next to the battery.

Edited by - on

putzmeister
Navigator

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100 Posts

Response Posted - 12/24/2012 : 18:14:54

FWIW, our 1989 tall rig had a fixed gooseneck. I converted it to a slider. Also had a new main made by Ullman, Ventura, and had 1' taken off the foot to give us more headroom - especially for the bimini.

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JKBIXBY
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2012 : 08:18:05

Enjoy your sailing on Grapevine. We were at Silver Lake Marina for about 3 years prior to moving. Great lake to sail on.

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2012 : 21:37:14

Hi Steve:
Welcome! You are in good company. When I was messing with my cabin lights, I took one of the covers off and reinstalled it, it didn't work right. I had reinstalled the cover 'backwards.' If you have a light that works well, (as described above) carefully remove the cover, it just snaps on and off. Look at it closely, and the light that is not working right may have the cover installed incorrectly. Only my main cabin or salon lights are rectangular and the others are square. For the main cabin lights I replaced one of the incandescent bulbs with a red LED bulb that fits in the existing fixture. So now I can cruise at night without being blinded by a white cabin light.

Our boats are sisters, just 4 hull numbers apart. I am just a few miles down the road, I would be glad to have you come by and you can compare boats. The wiring on my Tall Rig, was replaced about 3 years ago. I also have a handy Bimini. Howard Webb (see above post) is also close and he had a nice Standard Rig in the neighborhood

I would go with a second battery, and heed suggestion above to get two batteries that are Marine grade, deep cycle and are the same model, age and rating. Academy has a sale every year in March or April and you can get Exide Marine Stow Away batteries for about $59.00 after an Exide rebate that is usually in effect at the same time. I like the comfort in knowing that if I accidentally run one battery down, I still have a back up.

Doug

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.