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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Shore Power and Battery Power

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vegasjosh
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/14/2012 : 21:13:11

Just purchased my first 1984 Catalina 25 (accomplishing a 15 year goal of mine to own a sail boat)

cleaning the bought today and came across an electrical issue I cannot successfully troubleshoot.

the boat is plugged utilizing the shore power system.

The 110 AC outlets work fine, but I have no interior or exterior lights.

are the interior and exterior lights solely dependent on the DC power of the batteries? or do I have a larger issue at hand.

and if anyone will can suggest a store that offers complete curtain sets for the Catalina 25's - mine were dry rotted.

Joshua Steenmeyer
-
5 O�CLOCK
Catalina 25
Lake Mead, NV

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 22:42:12

Joshua
Welcome to this group. Glad to have you aboard!
Shore power is 120VAC and that's to run your electrical outlets for refrigerators, ACs, power tools, appliances. Boat safety lighting, VHF radio, GPS, inside lights are meant to work while the boat is underway or at anchor, well away from shore power. A 12VDC battery or batteries should be installed and fully charged to operate these circuits. That's more like your car lights and car audio system that runs off the battery.
Basic troubleshooting includes checking the battery on/off switch, the electrical panel main on/off switch, the main panel fuse, the battery fuse, the battery connections and lastly the battery or batteries themselves.
You can find these all in the owners manual on the website, and you can find the battery under the starboard settee hatch cover.
If you find all the switches and the fuses ok, check the battery voltage with a digital multimeter / voltmeter for 12.7 VDC. If it is less than 11.5 VDC, try a battery charger. Plug in shore power and plug the charger into an outlet. Connect the red +12V clip to the plus terminal and black lead to the minus terminal.
Let it charge for a day or so and try it again. If the battery doesn't recharge, get another one.
If you have two batteries and need to replace them, replace one first. Keep it simple to start with.
Hope it helps! Good luck.

Edited by - on

vegasjosh
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 23:29:24

I checked both batteries - both are dead!!! even though 1 had a trickle solar charger attached.

I do have an onboard after market radio that is attached to the DC system ( I believe )

BUT what I gathered from your response! AND THANK YOU for responding. A thousand thank you's

In order for my running and interior light to work I will need to replace both of my batteries. Interior and exterior lighting will not work via shore power.

Edited by - on

vegasjosh
Deckhand

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USA
12 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2012 : 23:30:31

FYI - I am creating catalinadiaries.com and will be mentioning this post - thank you

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2012 : 05:36:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by vegasjosh
 I checked both batteries - both are dead!!! even though 1 had a trickle solar charger attached.

I do have an onboard after market radio that is attached to the DC system ( I believe )

BUT what I gathered from your response! AND THANK YOU for responding. A thousand thank you's

In order for my running and interior light to work I will need to replace both of my batteries. Interior and exterior lighting will not work via shore power.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If both batteries are dead you will have to replace at least one. If your not going to be away from the dock much at night you can get by with replacing just one battery. If you plan to overnight away from an electrical outlet you should replace both batteries at the same time.

If you decide to replace only one battery you must disconnect (preferably remove) the second battery or the dead battery will drain your new battery.

Because you have two batteries you most likely have a battery switch. Look for a large red switch similar to this one [url="http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/product.do?part=53204&engine=adwords!6456&keyword=product_ad_2464&type=pla"]Battery Switch[/url]. I'm not sure where they were mounted on an '84 model but they are usually under the companionway ladder or near the galley area. Rotate the switch to each of the positions (1, 2, Both) and see if one of the positions gives you power to the lights. There should also be a switch panel similar to this one [url="http://www.chipford.com/graphics/wiring01.jpg"]Switch Panel[/url] that has a row of switches. I'd suggest you turn them all on at first to see if the above procedure will result in lights/stereo coming on somewhere on the boat.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2012 : 08:53:24

Having shore power doesn't mean that there is a battery charger that can charge your house batteries from the shore power system. The most likely location for a charger is on the bulkhead at the front of the lazarette (dumpster), but look around.

My C-25 had shore power, but it only powered the two cabin outlets. The batteries were charged via a solar panel and the motor. The lights were on the 12v system and wouldn't work if the batteries were dead. My C-25 had two batteries, but I ran them in parallel so that there was logically only a single battery.

It doesn't make sense to have starter and house battery systems in a boat with an outboard engine and such simple electronics. If you use LED lighting you'll probably find that fresh batteries and a 20-40w solar charger are all that you need. It is a real joy to not have to lug that shore power cable around with you everywhere and hook it up after every sail.

My new boat has a much more complicated electrical system with two battery banks, shore, alternator, and solar charging. The equipment for this setup runs at least $500-$600 (just for the 3 chargers, not the batteries and solar panels) and is overkill on a C-25.

Is your outboard electric start?

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2012 : 20:38:04

I agree - its best to eliminate both old batteries. Replace one first and if you think you'll need it, add a second one.

I prefer to keep it really simple. I've got a single group 24 battery with 70Amp Hour capacity (I may upgrade to a group 27 next season with 85 AH). I've thought about getting two batteries, but I'd be at a loss whether to keep them wired in parallel or to connect them through an A-B-Both-Off switch.

While I have done plenty of overnight and weekend trips, I've never run out of battery power. I've got two 20W solar panels and a 12A alternator on the engine. A discharged 70AH battery needs only 3-4 hours charge using the engine, or two days using the solar panels to be fully recharged.

I use LED lights, a battery-powered FM radio and a hand-held VHF. I've got a built-in audio system and high power VHF but I prefer to save power. My nav lights are LEDs, and I don't have a toaster, microwave or electric coffee pot.

I guess I could add a small 2kW Honda generator if I needed one, but so far, I haven't.

Edited by - Voyager on 12/15/2012 20:46:31

AkaBud
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 12/16/2012 : 08:15:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by vegasjosh
 
and if anyone will can suggest a store that offers complete curtain sets for the Catalina 25's - mine were dry rotted.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I'm think I'm going to get the Zarcor Peek A Boo Shutters. I got a quote of $320 for all 6 ports on a Calalina 25. Tell them you saw them at the Boat Show and they might still give you the 10% discount.

http://www.sail2000.com/products/peek-a-booo/index.php

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2012 : 18:54:36

One of the best purchases we made was a solar charger from Defender. Our 2 Group 24 batteries we bought 7..YES 7 years ago from Walmart and we solar charge them during the summer and in the winter they are stored in our basement and we charge them off and on, but before spring launch we full charge them. I have them tested for load every other year. This Forum has given you some very solid advice and I would not disagree with it. We have an electric start outboard and I would replace Both batteries at the same time. Keep us in the loop.

Edited by - on

binky
Navigator

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USA
115 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2012 : 19:57:33

Alan, what size solar charger did you purchase? I have been researching them and I am more confused today than I was yesterday.

Edited by - on

Alan Clark
Captain

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406 Posts

Response Posted - 12/21/2012 : 20:09:59

We Bought a Gopower brand GPLD10 14" X 20" 10W .6a 16.5V

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/22/2012 : 08:42:18

My C-25 had a 20w panel mounted on the stern pulpit in the center that charged two group 24 batteries. The highest electrical load on that boat was the autopilot. Otherwise it just had a handheld GPS, Garmin fishfinder, basic VHF, and all of the lights were LEDs. We never drained the batteries very far and the solar charger did a great job of keeping everything topped up. We didn't have shore power and otherwise only charged from the outboard's alternator.

My new boat has a 30w panel mounted in the same location charging two group 27 batteries.

An important factor is the type of charger. A MPPT charger will continue to charge your batteries even if the panel is partially shaded, most others won't. Genasun sells an inexpensive one (about $75) for these smaller panels.

Monocrystalline panels give the most watts per square foot and are what you want on a boat. A 20 or 30w panel should be about $100 on Amazon or eBay. For some reason West Marine primarily sells polycrystalline panels that are about half as powerful per square foot.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2012 : 07:54:20

Alan
I agree with Alex. Get a monocrystalline panel since they provide more power.
I would add a few details.
Panels are rated in watts but all battery calculations are done in amps and charging is calculated in Amp Hours (AH).
Solar panels' typical open circuit voltage is 18VDC so your max full sun, short circuit current is: Watts / 18V = Amps.
For example a 30W panel can produce 30/18= 1.67A. You will rarely measure more than 1.5A.
A Group 27 battery has a capacity of about 85 Amp Hours. You should discharge a battery to no less than half it's AH capacity. That would be 42 AH.
For example if you run a 2A anchor light for 10 hours plus a 4A cooling plate for 2 hours and a 1A stereo for 12 hours, you're just about there.
You can roughly measure your battery's remaining AHs by reading its idle voltage but you need an accurate voltmeter. A fully charged battery sitting idle will measure 12.8V. If the battery measures 12.0 you're almost 1/2 discharged. Don Casey published a table in his book "Sailboat Electrics" listing exact figures.
With a 30W panel in full sun for 12 hours per day at 1.5A you can expect to recharge one battery in two and a half days.
If you have two batteries 1/2 discharged, it can take 5 days.
Normally, you won't use all your available power especially with two batteries. So after a few day trip you should allow several days to replenish your batteries.
If however you have a 6A alternator on your engine, you can replenish much more quickly. My Honda has a 12A alternator so motorsailing for a few hours restores my Group 24 quickly.
My 30W panel is good if I'm using the radio or cabin lights on the dock. By the end of the following day the battery is usually recharged.
Bottom line: get the most powerful (Watts) and compact panel(s) you can afford. West Marine's SunForce panels do not meet this criterion.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3466 Posts

Response Posted - 12/23/2012 : 15:19:07

Just to add to Bruce's excellent post regarding the realities of using a solar panel, while cost may be a limiting factor as to the solar panel chosen, as a guide, a quality rigid solar panel you can get a 20 watt that fits a 20" x 14' footprint and a 30 watt with a 20' x 20" footprint. This is typical for Kyocera solar panels. I have a 20 watt for 2 batteries. Less expensive panels or flexible types will take up a larger footprint for same wattage as the Kyoceras or similar panels.

My loads are generally light. A 30 watt would not have been an overkill but the 20 watt has been sufficient for me at present. The other thing is the solar controller you purchase. If you have a solar panel just for trickle charging one battery with no loads, a 5 watt solar panel without a controller will work. But any panel producing more than 5 watts per battery, you then need a solar controller to ensure you do not cook the battery. You can get a basic solar controller with no readouts and it will do the job preventing any loss thru the panel during non-charging hours and will prevent overcharging your batteries. In this case, I went with a Morningstar Pro 15m which has digital readouts for voltage, solar amps charging and loads other than the battery that may be hooked up directly to the panel (which I do not utilize). Here are some photos from my website of my hook-up. These are old photos. Nothing has really chaged in 7 years of use, except that what is not shown is that I have now utilized the sensing lines on the controller that help provide more acurrate charging rate based on the standing battery voltage/% charged.

Edited by - on

Arlington
Navigator

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USA
196 Posts

Response Posted - 12/25/2012 : 21:50:51

Welcome Aboard Joshua! Welcome to the Association. Congratulations on your new Catalina 25.
Doug

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/26/2012 : 14:44:39

This article is helpful and covers everything that we've talked about and more:
http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solar_panel

"Maine Sail" is a regular on sailnet and has a lot of useful photo walk throughs on his pbase page.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2012 : 09:22:25

I read a article recently that looked at the effect of shadows on solar panels. Most of us are probably aware of the drastic fall off of output if only 10% of a panel is shaded. The author did some testing and demonstrated that if multiple smaller panels are connected in parallel, the shaded panel loses most of its output but doesn't compromise the other panels. Using several smaller panels really offers benefits.

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 12/28/2012 : 17:09:39

In the articles cited above, one point that was mentioned is that the system should be built to deliver full power at peak load. For example, if the panel can deliver 3A, the cable should be at least #16 gauge wire. In another article, the author mentions that while the panels and regulator can deliver bulk charging, since it takes so long to charge the last 5%, you are in danger of chronically undercharging the battery. He stated that chronic undercharging will cause sulfation of the plates in the battery and premature aging of the battery.
Coincidentally, in this month's Sail Magazine, Nigel Calder discussed running the house batteries using only solar, windmill and the engine alternator. He advised using the engine for bulk charging, the windmill for topping off and the solar for small loads and float. He said that using the engine to fully charge and top off the battery is overkill. Good article.

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