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Bigger boat closer to reality

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/14/2013 : 11:01:21

Hi All,

I'm closer to getting a bigger boat, and am ready to make an offer on a Beneteau 361. I am wondering if anyone has experience with such a loan through Boat US. I was going to get insurance quotes from Boat US and when I saw they have a link for financing, I thought that could be convenient.

Any thoughts?

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 14:32:13

Can't help with the advice you're seeking, but the Beneteau 361 is a very nice choice! I'm envious!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 14:57:36

[url="http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Beneteau-361-2389670/Sandusky/OH/United-States"]Katz Cradle[/url]?

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 15:48:29

Thanks Steve; yes Stinkpotter, that's the one. My sweetie and I drove up this past weekend to look at the marina and some boats up there, and the B361 was very nice. I'm not getting my hopes up, because these things tend to sell out from under me before I can get the contract going, but I'm certainly hopeful. I hope to put my C25 up for sale on the swap meet in a couple days.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 01/14/2013 : 17:43:25

Pardon me while I get deep green with jealousy... nice ride!

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2013 : 09:52:56

Just wondering, when you buy your boat through a brokerage, can you trade your current boat against it, like buying a car?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2013 : 10:20:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Prospector
 Just wondering, when you buy your boat through a brokerage, can you trade your current boat against it, like buying a car?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Not generally... Brokers don't "own" boats--they market them and manage the sales process for the owners. You might get a favorable deal on selling your boat through a broker if you're buying a bigger one through him. For example, he might not otherwise represent a boat with as low a market value as an older C-25... (Some brokers ordinarily won't take on boats under $10K or some other number, or they have a minimum commission of something like $1,000.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/15/2013 10:25:44

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2013 : 16:16:11

Minimum commission here is $2000. They'll take cheaper boats, but you are losing $2000.

Normal commission is 10%. So it doesn't make sense to sell a boat through a broker for under $20k.

I found buying through a broker to be a pain in butt. It's a lot easier to talk directly with the seller and to negotiate with them directly too. That is eventually what happened (talking directly), but we finalized the deal through the broker since the seller already had a contract in place requiring that.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 01/15/2013 : 17:00:33

Man...that's like going from a Coleman Pop Top Camper to a triple slide 5th wheeler! Damn.....

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2013 : 14:25:19

Yes, unfortunately I'm not able to trade in the C25, so I'll be trying to sell it on my own. As an update, we settled on a negotiated price with the seller, so a big hurdle is behind us. Now we just have to hope for a favorable survey and a financial institution gullible enough to give me a loan.

Edited by - on

Joe Diver
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1218 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2013 : 17:58:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 ....and a financial institution gullible enough to give me a loan.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Keep us up to date on that, if it's not too private....I understand if it is....but in this economic climate and the changing nature of loans I'm curious about how this goes for you....

Good luck...that's a sweet Bennie! I hope you get her.....

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2013 : 13:45:40

Joe, I'll be happy to provide status reports. Things are actually moving pretty quickly. Almost all the paperwork has been submitted, with the exception of the survey, and that is scheduled for this coming Saturday, weather permitting.

Edited by - on

szymek
Navigator

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Canada
209 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2013 : 19:34:20

Ben that is a nice boat! I sailed nearly same boat -i just believe she was 1999. Friend of mine sailed it up and down entire Caribbean. I just sailed it with him on one fraction from St. Lucia to Trinidad. One thing that I remember is that she was rounding up quite a bit. But other than that that's one beautiful and comfortable boat! I spent only 3 weeks on her and that was one of the best sailing that I've done.

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 07:12:50

That's nice to hear, Szymek. In my research of this boat I read a lot about this boat's tendency to round up when overpowered. The concensus I read regarding how to deal with that issue was to reef early, and to maintain the right sail balance. What I read is that with the wide beam (12' 6"), the B361 tends to round up sooner than other boats of her size.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 14:45:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 That's nice to hear, Szymek. In my research of this boat I read a lot about this boat's tendency to round up when overpowered. The concensus I read regarding how to deal with that issue was to reef early, and to maintain the right sail balance. What I read is that with the wide beam (12' 6"), the B361 tends to round up sooner than other boats of her size.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sounds like you're describing the C250.

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 17:40:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ben
 That's nice to hear, Szymek. In my research of this boat I read a lot about this boat's tendency to round up when overpowered. The concensus I read regarding how to deal with that issue was to reef early, and to maintain the right sail balance. What I read is that with the wide beam (12' 6"), the B361 tends to round up sooner than other boats of her size.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Sounds like you're describing the C250.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Which is why I'd rather buy the Hans Christian in a different thread.

sten
DPO "Zephyr" '82 C25 SR FK #3220
SV "Lysistrata" '73 C&C39 - Dunedin FL

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 18:08:10

If she tends to round up more than you like, you can tune that out of the rig by tilting the mast forward a little more. C25s used to be bad for rounding up, until guys learned how to reduce it by rig tuning.

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2013 : 20:04:19

I don't get it. I would think by tuning the mast forward you would move more sail area forward that would lend to more rounding up. And maybe it's more of a "well balanced" sail area? which would differ between rigs?

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redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 06:16:15

I'm not an expert on mast trimming on a C25 for sure. All I do know is that I can trim my 60 foot mast from the cockpit on my C&C 39. That's raking the mast aft with a hydraulic tensioner. So, yeah, how do you do it forward?

Sten

Edited by - on

DaveR
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2015 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 06:44:38

hydraulic tensioner? how cool!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 07:02:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 I don't get it. I would think by tuning the mast forward you would move more sail area forward that would lend to more rounding up. And maybe it's more of a "well balanced" sail area? which would differ between rigs?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">There's a good general discussion of weather helm on Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_helm.

For a more detailed, but readable, technical discussion, see the article at http://physicstoday.org/journals/doc/PHTOAD-ft/vol_61/iss_2/38_1.shtml?bypassSSO=1

We tend to think only about the pressures on the sails, because that's what we can see, but we tend to forget about the pressures on the keel and hull, because that is happening underwater, where we can't see it. While the sail pressure is pulling the boat in one direction, the underwater forces on the hull and keel are pushing it in the opposite direction, and the trick to sailing efficiency is to balance the two forces.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 07:34:27

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by redviking
 I'm not an expert on mast trimming on a C25 for sure. All I do know is that I can trim my 60 foot mast from the cockpit on my C&C 39. That's raking the mast aft with a hydraulic tensioner. So, yeah, how do you do it forward?

Sten
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">These are two different functions. When you tune the rig, you are adjusting the balance of the pressures on the keel against the pressures on the sail plan. When you adjust backstay tension, you are changing the shape of the sails, by flattening them. People think a backstay adjuster permits a boat to sail closer to the wind, but that isn't true. A sailboat is limited, by it's design, in it's ability to sail to windward. Increasing the rig tension doesn't really improve it's ability to sail to windward. It simply allows the boat to sail to windward as efficiently as it can, within the limits of it's design parameters. If your boat doesn't have a backstay adjuster, you can get out your wrenches and adjust the tension on the rig, and it will sail to windward just as well as a boat with a backstay adjuster. The benefit that you get from a backstay adjuster is that it enables you to change the rig tension almost instantly, on the fly, from taut to loose. When the backstay adjuster is taut, the sails are flattened, and the boat can point as well as it's design permits, but when the backstay adjuster is eased, it loosens the tension on the forestay, and that increases the draft of both sails, powering them up, which is exactly what you want to do when sailing off the wind or in light air. It also allows the rig to tilt forward a bit, but, since you generally ease the backstay tension when in light air or off the wind, a little forward tilt doesn't hurt.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 01/19/2013 07:58:50

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 07:57:04

Sten, when you tension your backstay adjuster, you really aren't raking it aft beyond the amount of rake that the designer intended. If the designer established the optimum amount of rake at a certain number of degrees, you won't make the boat point higher by raking the mast aft more than that optimum amount (unless the designer miscalculated the optimum amount of rake

). When you tension the backstay adjuster, you are simply raking the mast to the optimum amount that the designer intended. The real benefit that you gain with a backstay adjuster is in being able to instantly loosen the rig tension, and especially the tension on the forestay. That powers up the sails for sailing off the wind and in light air. When considered in that light, the term "backstay adjuster" is probably a misnomer. It should really be thought of as being a forestay adjuster.

Edited by - on

redviking
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1771 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 11:25:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by DaveR
 hydraulic tensioner? how cool!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It's a heavy duty racing thing... I'll admit that I rarely mess with it unless on a .long passage and looking for an extra 1/2 knot. You are correct Steve, but I think it all depends on how the rig was tensioned to begin with... Still, I have seen some really raked back applications with wooden masts.

Sten

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 01/19/2013 : 13:20:14

Another function of the backstay adjuster is to change the amount of bend in the mast, which in turn affects the shape of the mainsail. Tightening the backstay can bend the mast, flattening the main by pulling the midsection of the luff forward, while easing it makes the main fuller. The degree to which you can bend the mast depends on the design of the rig. Components that increase the ability to bend are (1) a "fractional rig", with the forestay going to a point 1/8 to 1/4 down from the top so it can pull the middle forward as the backstay pulls the top aft, (2) four lower shrouds, so the forward lowers can pull the middle forward if the aft lowers are loose enough, and (3) swept back spreaders, which can make the upper shrouds push the middle forward.

The C-25 only has the forward lowers to help bend the mast, while the C-250 only has the swept-back spreaders. Neither boat is really designed to impart significant bend. Most newer boats designed with racing in mind are fractional rigs, primarily for this reason. Racers like "loose rigs" in order to allow this bending to happen when they "crank it down."

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/19/2013 13:30:17

Stu Jackson C34
Admiral

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844 Posts

Response Posted - 01/21/2013 : 12:33:57

One of the other benefits of the backstay adjuster is to tighten your forestay. Most boats of that size have telephone poles for masts (mine does!) and there is little if any change to shape of the sails. Theoretically, yes, realistically, nope. There is also a small difference between masthead and fractional rigs.

Edited by - Stu Jackson C34 on 01/21/2013 12:34:33

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