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Electrical engineering help needed

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Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/26/2003 : 08:13:15

Hi folks,

My new/old 89WK/TR (still unnamed-it will come to me) does not have the 110 volt system hooked up. Since I like to be technically correct in all I do, I want a properly designed electrical system. Someday I will get an older 35 to 40 footer for retirement, and my 25 will be part of my continuing learning experience, just like my C22 was.

I want to incorporate all of the elements of a properly designed system to ABYC standards including, but not limited to (kinda sounds like a lawyer)

110 volt panel with reverse polarity detector
Ground fault circuit protection
110 volt to 12 volt charging system with 3 stage regulation
Dual absorbed glass mat batteries
Additional 12 volt panel for additional circuits to control lighting and accesories.
Tie in the charger from a Honda 12 amp regulated alternator
Tie in a Solar panel with charge controller (I already have this system, and will move it from my 22 to the 25)
battery isolators
diodes ?
galvanic isolators ? I don't know if I need this with a lead wing
I'm not sure if I want an inverter, but it sure would be nice to know how to tie that in too
I'm sure that there are more things to include in a proper system

I have been reading Casey, and also Calder's books.

I have an engineering background from the construction industry, but currently do anesthesia (I can pass gas with the best of them) so I am into doing a job right. I also have experience in residential wiring) I completely rewired my 22, including installina a conduit in the mast to run electrical and RF cabling.

I plan to use all Ancor products for wiring

I have found that the advice "here's what I did" isn't always the correct thing.

Maybe someone has already developed a wiring schematic to include all of these elements.

Maybe I need to hire an engineer who knows marine design to properly tie in all of these systems.

I hope that Catalina has done a better job on electrical installation/design work on their offshore boats than what I have seen so far on their 22's and 25's.

So, can anybody recommend someone I can turn to? I would be willing to pay for professional help. (This has been suggested to me before-as in "You need help Frank") When a proper design is developed, I would be willing to share it with the association.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 09:44:22

Frank,

I have designed, and mostly built, almost exactly the C-25 electrical system you described. The core of the system (maybe 80%) has been in use for about two years; bells and whistles are still being added around the edges (the other 20%). I also happen to have used a CAD system to develop the 5-page schematics, so it may be possible to transmit them with more accuracy than just FAXes of sketches documented by vague hand gestures. One thing I did early on, that you might want to look into, is I purchased a used load center out of a motor yacht that had about all the elec. panel features I was looking for.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I have found that the advice "here's what I did" isn't always the correct thing.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Before starting, I also read the relevant books by Don Casey, Nigel Calder, and Charlie Wing. I also have an A.S. degree in electronic technology (digital), and about 8 years aerospace experience as a payload and ground support technician, including electronic prototype fabrication. I have also professionally wired a 36' custom built houseboat.

Let me know if I can be of assistance.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 14:49:52

Hi Leon,

You sure have excellent credentials in electrical work. Did you work at the cape? My old college roomate's father was the launch director for Mercury, and he had pictures of him with Kennedy and the original 7 astraunauts in his den. Very impressive pictures.
You remind me of the guy who built my computer. He used to be a master chief in the navy, and his job was maintenance on missles on nuclear submarines. I'll bet there was pressure not to go "OOPS"

I sure would like to get a copy of your schematics if I could.

One of my biggest areas of concern is how to tie in the charging systems from the alternator on the Honda and then of course the power to the outboard starter, charging from the 110 volt charger, and charging from the solar power charge controller. Do they all hook together? Do you need switching for all? Do you need diodes? and how to have two batteries for plenty of capacity.
I don't think I would be qualified to evaluate a good used panel like you suggested, besides, then you have to fit it onto the 25.

Look at Boats.com and do a search for 1989 catalina 25's. There are two listed. The one I bought is in North carolina and it shows the electrical stuff mounted on my bulkhead. Of course now I have to relocate the electronics to the cockpit, and move the panel to the left so I can stow the table.
So many questions. I really do want to do this right. No meltdowns, no explosions.
Thanks
Frank Gloss
fgloss@knology.net

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 15:03:18

Let me know if I can be of assistance. -- Leon Sisson

Hi Leon,

If it's not too much trouble, would you please send me whatever you send to Frank? I would like to do similar mods to my electrical system, and any info you have would be a GREAT help.

Thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 15:39:53

Hey Buzz,

If I get the plans, maybe I can take it to a blueprint shop and get copies made. They now have huge copiers built like blueprint machines. We used to have one when I worked for a builder in the late 80's. I wouldn't douby if they have even better stuff now.

Between your racing/rigging advice, and Leon's electrical advice, and my checkbook and gruntwork, we'll make my 89WK really nice.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 16:38:10

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hey Buzz,

Between your racing/rigging advice, and Leon's electrical advice, and my checkbook and gruntwork, we'll make my 89WK really nice.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hi Frank,

I can't take any credit for racing advice ... that would be Derek ... he is King of the Hill at Canyon Lake.

BTW, the blueprint/copy idea sounds good ... let me know what develops.

Thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3323 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 20:38:22

Aw shucks, Buzz!<img src=icon_smile_blush.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 21:28:34

Sorry about confusing Derek and Buzz. I'm still learning who is who. I guesse that leaves me and my checkbook.

We still need Leon for some design work

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 23:38:01

Frank Gloss,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Did you work at the cape?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yes, 15 years at Kennedy Space Center and Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. Got complacent, and failed to dodge a large layoff last summer. Now on "unscheduled extended vacation".<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>I'll bet there was pressure not to go "OOPS"<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>"Oops" is not an option in the space business. The price of "oops" can have too many commas. "Oops" tends to reverberate in tomorrow's headlines across the country (or even the world, depending on the "oops").

Here's a link to the sheet of my schematics that seems most appropriate to your initial questions.

[url="http://www.trailersailor.com/uploads/c25_elec_sch_p2.gif"]C-25 schematic, '12VDC Charging & High Current'(pg.2)[/url]

See if you can download, view, print, and understand that one before I get carried away preparing and uploading the other pages. If you have questions, corrections, etc., feel free to ask me either here or by e-mail. <SissonL@MPInet.Net> If you prefer to talk on the phone, e-mail me and I'll give you my number.

I'll try to get around to posting some photos of my cobbled together total overkill electrical panel.

Some preliminary answers (sort of a FAQ for my charging system).

1.) How does one coordinate multiple charging sources? The battery combiners, and the voltage regulators at the individual charge sources, take care of that. Read up on battery combiners, they're pretty cool. [url="http://yandina.com/combInfo.htm"]Link to combiner info.[/url] As for voltage regulators, let's say the solar panels have fully charged all batteries. The voltage regulators in the battery charger and/or engine alternator will pick up on that, and won't try to overcharge them. Whichever charging source's regulator is set to the lowest cutout will quit the earliest, the source with the highest cutout voltage will keep charging the longest.

2.) How did you make your connections? Where ever possible, wires end in ring terminals which are crimped, soldered, cleaned, and covered with heatshrink tube long enough to provide some strain relief where the solder ends in the wire.

3.) Speaking of wire, what kind did you use? All marine grade stranded and fully tinned. Usually 2-conductors paired in an additional layer of insulation. In some cases, up to 5-conductor cable. Wire gauges were determined by calulating likely worst case current, estimating total circuit length, and looking up the wire size on the handy charts provided by West Marine. The 3% chart was used for all legally required and/or safety related circuits. The 10% chart was used for all others.

4.) Isn't it a bad practice to combine 120vac and 12VDC wiring in the same panel (which I did)? Yes, that's what some of the books say. I ran all shore power wiring inside PVC flex conduit, weather proof junction boxes, and liquid tight joints. The only exception is right at the circuit breakers, where I used an additional layer of insulation tubing, and wrapped the back of the switches with duct tape. I figure it would take a very determined suicidal idiot to make contact with shore power, even with the electrical panel cover open.

5.) How come you did ... (instead of ...)? There may be several of these, but I'm going to wait to see what they are before launching off into long, probably confusing, and possibly unecessary explanations and justifications.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - Leon Sisson on 01/26/2003 23:52:11

Edited by - on

Earl Landers
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 00:47:41

Leon,
I have worked in, around, and on DC power plants for the last 34 years and I have a concern with your schematic. Your drawing shows a direct connection between the solar panels and the battery positive terminal. Is there a protection device in this connection, fuse, circuit breaker, etc. that isn't shown? Will a short in the PV panel cause a catastrophic failure/fire? The first modifcation I made to my boat after I bought it was to add a circuit breaker (explosion proof) in the battery box to protect the wiring between the batt and the Switch/Fuse panel at the sink. The original design IMHO leaves a lot to be desired.
Please accept this criticism as I intend it, I am only concerned with your and others safety.

Earl Landers

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 09:54:06

Earl Landers,
<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Your drawing shows a direct connection between the solar panels and the battery positive terminal.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Good catch. Yes, the solar panels come with an inline fuse. When I lengthened the solar panel leads to reach my house bank bus bars, I eliminated the factory fuse, but added a twist lock panel mount fuse holder for each solar panel just a few inches of wire away from the bus bars. In addition to protecting the solar panel wiring, these provide a convenient means of turning off the solar panels when working on the electrcal system.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The original design IMHO leaves a lot to be desired.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Yeah, but it's typical of the industry at the time it was built. Sure does provide an incentive to modernize though.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Please accept this criticism as I intend it, I am only concerned with your and others safety.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>No problem. Like I said, "If you have questions, corrections, etc., feel free to ask me either here or by e-mail." I generally welcome constructive criticism from knowledgable people. If it bothered me, I'd have learned by now to keep my bright ideas to myself.<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2003 : 00:05:54

Frank,

Here's some pictures of my "rats nest". Hope it helps.

<img src="http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/Pics2/electric1.jpg" border=0>
<img src="http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/Pics2/electric2.jpg" border=0>
<img src="http://www.comhertz.com/abacus/Pics2/electric3.jpg" border=0>

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

Gloss
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1916 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2003 : 11:16:39

Hi Albert,

Thanks for the pics.

I see that you had a seperate switch for the charger. Since I have to start from scratch with a 110 volt system I thought I would get a panel with maybe 3 breakers. Then I could have one for the charger, one for the outlets and one for future stuff. I know that there is always more "stuff" to get. I don't remember if my new boat has an outside receptacle already. I pick up the boat tomorrow.

Do you have an alternator, or solar power that had to be hooked up.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR

Edited by - on

albert
Captain

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USA
262 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2003 : 11:35:19

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Hi Albert,

Thanks for the pics.

I see that you had a seperate switch for the charger. Since I have to start from scratch with a 110 volt system I thought I would get a panel with maybe 3 breakers. Then I could have one for the charger, one for the outlets and one for future stuff. I know that there is always more "stuff" to get. I don't remember if my new boat has an outside receptacle already. I pick up the boat tomorrow.

Do you have an alternator, or solar power that had to be hooked up.

Frank Gloss
89WK/TR
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Alternator from my outboard. Its routed to my "A/B" switch. My A/C needs were simple--one 20amp outlet, one AC Charger, with the ability to add additional outlets.

Albert Iturrey
al@comhertz.com
Abacus': http://www.comhertz.com/abacus

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

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Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 11:55:17

I have asked b4, but i wanna double check.. i was planning on having the charger directly linked to the AC main.. what is the rationalle behind having separate switches?.. is it just security?
Also can i run the boat lights and stuff with the carger "on"?

BTW, i am gonna work on the electrical during the haul out... any "MUST CHECKS" you know of with your experience?

thanks
marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 14:03:01

marco,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... having the charger directly linked to the AC main ... what is the rationalle behind having separate switches?.. is it just security?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>At the very least, all battery chargers need to be protected by circuit breakers or fuses at both the inputs and outputs. Having a way to shut down each charging source comes in handy when working on the electrical system.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Also can I run the boat lights and stuff with the charger "On"?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Sure. The only time this would be a problem is when a "smart charger" is in equalization mode, but that doesn't happen by accident -- you have to do it quite deliberately after reading the owners manual.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 15:06:00

Leon,
I am sold on the idea of having a separate switch for the charger..

the switch itself should have a fuse right?... there already is a fuse on the positive treminal leading to the battery <img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

gotta look into those hany charts of West marine you spoke about to see what wire to get for the rest of the remodernizing... How important is a new panel?

look at what i gotta work with.. heheh
<img src="http://www.kaotica.com/marco/elec.jpg" border=0>

with your resume i hope you are not bored by my mundane questions...

take care
-marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 20:42:07

marco,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With your resume I hope you are not bored by my mundane questions...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>Good grief.<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> The only reason I even mentioned that stuff was in response to Frank's "I have found that the advice 'here's what I did' isn't always the correct thing." and in response to his later question, "Did you work at the cape?" I certainly didn't mean to sound like I was boasting or trying to impress everyone. Remember, my current job title is "Unemployed Boat Bum".<img src=icon_smile_shy.gif border=0 align=middle><BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... separate switch for the charger ... should have a fuse right?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote> Yes. A fuse or circuit breaker. I also included GFI protection and a galvanic isolator.<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>How important is a new panel?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>That's up to you. As I recall, the original Catalina electrical panel consisted of not much more than a handfull of fused toggle switches and a pilot light. That doesn't leave much room for moderization, and would seem to invite replacement. I'm partial to marine duty circuit breakers myself, but on a boat of this size, price, and intended use, I think fuses are OK too. A few of the other owners seem to have used the Sea Dog replacement electrical panels, one with about six fused and lighted rocker switches, and one with three switches, a volt meter, and a cig.lighter outlet. That's the same setup I installed on my previous 22' sailboat, and it worked fine for me. The electrical system I'm building in my Catalina 25 is by most sane people's standards a monument to overkill.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

markolito
1st Mate

Members Avatar

Italy
95 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 23:13:03

leon,

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>The electrical system I'm building in my Catalina 25 is by most sane people's standards a monument to overkill. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Your work is inspiring...<img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

I will add a cig lighter i got, a voltmeter, and 2 new AC switches one for the main power and one for the charger.

A volt meter is the best way to judge how much "juice" your battery has right?.. The power gets consumed depending on amperage of the connected appliance. Is an amp meter necessary for weekend useage? I will charge the battery to full charge a min of every 3 days. All i wanna know is how much "juice" i still got..

i feel like a moron calling the power "juice" <img src=icon_smile_clown.gif border=0 align=middle>

take care,
marco

<img src="http://www.response-marketing.com/beta/plaa.jpg" border=0>
1980 SR/SK "Wet Pretzel"

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The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.