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binky
Navigator

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USA
115 Posts

Initially Posted - 03/20/2013 : 20:34:49

The marina called me the other day, this could be a good thing or a bad thing. Not sure how it could be a good thing..just hoping it could be. Anyway, it turned out to be a bad thing...not that bad...but enough to warrant a quick trip to the marina.

"Hey you may want to come down and check on your boat...it's hung up on the pier" I was thinking it was caught under the pier. He meant it was actually hung up on the pier. Higher tides (3.5 above normal) and strong winds caused this. I survived hurricane force winds without issue...not sure why this happened. Could new lines all around have caused this? Do new lines stretch initially?

Luckily a crow bar and some force got her back in the water.

"Mast Confusion"
1983 SK, #3525
Ken
Hampton Roads, Va

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 20:53:42

Yeeouch! How's your bracket?

What do you have for spring lines and how are they rigged? The longer they run from a point that is not on a floating dock (such as from a piling near the bow to the stern cleat on the boat), the less their angle and therefore effective length will change due to tides. For example, I run a breast-line from a fixed piling, across the boat to a stern cleat on the opposite side, rather than to the cleat on the side by the piling.

New nylon twist will stretch more than double-braid, but I prefer the nylon for shock absorption. After setting up dock lines at the beginning of each season, I check and adjust them several times in the first few weeks and at high and low tides. I also park bow-in so if all else fails, my big Honda engine (which cost almost as much as my car) won't take the hit. Before a big storm, I adjust the spring-lines to pull the boat a little further back out of the slip.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/20/2013 21:00:50

binky
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USA
115 Posts

Response Posted - 03/20/2013 : 21:08:44

I have two bow lines (piling attached), two spring lines (piling attached running to mid-cleat) and two stern lines (dock attached). The boat faces north, which is where the incoming tide comes from. On this day winds were about 40 mph(N, NW) and tides were 3.5-4.0 feet above high tide. Should I move mid-cleats to a more forward position?

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 05:43:45

I've never heard or seen that new nylon dock lines stretch significantly more than old ones, but nylon line, whether new or old, stretches a lot. That stretchiness absorbs the shock of the boat coming up short on its dock lines. It looks to me like the cause was that your boat was tied with the stern too close to the dock. I normally tie mine with the stern about 4' from the dock, and more when a major storm is coming. If you shorten the spring lines a bit, it shouldn't happen again.

The longest dock line is usually the spring line. As I recall, on my C&C 35, which weighs about 13,000 lbs, all my dock lines are 1/2", except for my spring line, which is 9/16". The reason is that the spring line is my longest line, and the larger diameter line will stretch less in stronger winds, which allows me to safely tie up a little closer to the dock. Also, if I need to tow another boat, my extra long, extra strong spring line serves as a good tow line. 40 knot winds can stretch 3/8" nylon dock lines a lot. (Your dock lines look like 3/8", but, if they're 1/4", I'd suggest you up-size them to 3/8 to reduce their stretchiness a bit. 1/4" is nominally strong enough, but 3/8" will stretch less and provide a margin of safety in case they chafe or start to become sun rotted with age.)

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/21/2013 05:45:23

pfduffy
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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 06:06:03

This has me thinking about my docking arrangement. My slip has 2 pilings at the fairway and 2 that are available to me along the main dock - but they are not really outside the corners of the boat. When I dock, I use 4 lines - 2 forward to the forward cleats and 2 aft to the aft cleats - port side line to starboard cleat and vice-versa. I do not use spring lines (partially because I don't have any mid-ship cleats.) There is no current, my tide swing is pretty small (less than 2 feet normally) and I am normally fairly well sheltered from the wind by trees, houses and the marina buildings.

Am I making a mistake by not using spring lines?

Where do people mound their mid-ship cleats so they do not interfere with the jib sheets?

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 06:09:38

It appears that your forward spring line was too long leaving you with little margin between the stern and the dock. As my boat will lose in a fight with the fixed concrete and steel dock, I employ two spring lines to prevent the boat from contacting the dock.

What's worse, being hung up on a dock or hanging from the dock?

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 06:54:38

Wow, tough cleats!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 06:58:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pfduffy
 Am I making a mistake by not using spring lines?

Where do people mound their mid-ship cleats so they do not interfere with the jib sheets?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

When my boat was docked on an inland lake, with floating docks and no tide, I didn't use a spring line, and got by fine. Now that I'm on the Chesapeake Bay, I can't remember the last time I've seen a boat that didn't use a spring line. The main purpose of a spring line is to limit the fore/aft movement of the boat as the wind load increases, and as the tide rises and falls. IMO, as a general rule, if your slip is on tidal waters, you should use a spring line. The mid-ship cleat on my boat is one that is attached to the genoa track. Those little buggers are expensive, but you can get by with only one. A much heavier boat should have one on each side, so you can spread the load to two lines. I would never tie a spring line to either a chainplate or a lifeline stanchion. I have seen one rip a lifeline stanchion out of the deck in a severe storm. You can tie a spring line to a stern cleat, but the line will probably dip into the water frequently, and accumulate algae on it. It's worth it to get a mid-ship cleat. Mine has never snagged a sheet. Defender currently has them on sale, but they're still pretty expensive.

If you back into the slip, your stern dock lines should be crossed over each other and affixed to the opposite dock cleats. That allows for much more tidal range without as much boat movement.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 07:12:50

I use spring lines on freshwater, but it's because my boat has less than 10 inches from each long finger at the docks. I dock bow in, and don't use mid-ship cleats. My spring lines run from the aft end of the fingers all the way to the bow... this pulls the boat "out" of the slip, and centers it IN the slip. I could likely get away with 1, but using 2 allows the boat to pull away. From the dock.

Actually our Vice Commodore (who also teaches our local ASA courses) and I went back and forth about "spring lines" and their use. I chastised him for only having 1. He rightfully said 1 does the job as well as 2... and in our waters he was right. However, I was always told to tie your boat like a storm was approaching, and if you CAN, use redundancy, enough that if any 1 line breaks the boat will still sit where she's supposed to. You'd be surprised how often having "redundancy" has saved my keester (line breaks, or worse cleat pulls out of the dock, or stupid me doesn't secure the line to the cleat right)...

Here's my boat right after I first splashed her last year. She's pretty ugly in this (and you'll note she's getting tossed around pretty good from a wake)... Note the spring lines are somewhat slack, the bow lines are tight (boat pulled away from dock)... and the stern lines are slack to starboard, but snug to port. There is less than 10 inches between the hull and the finger (on either side). These crazy pontoon boat designed docks are a challenge (but at least they float with the water levels)... Our water levels change as much as 15 feet over a season.

Edited by - shnool on 03/21/2013 07:17:12

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 07:27:12

Pat: I also had midship cleats, one on each genoa track. Because my sheets led outside of the stanchions from the winch, they never caught the cleat that I can remember.

Ken: The longer the line from the fixed position (piling), the less the "delta" in the vertical angle through tide swings, so the less the change in effective length. CORRECTION: So maybe your cleats should be further back--not further forward. You can also run spring lines (or even just one) to the stern cleats, which will make them longer so they can stretch more, but it will reduce the delta even more. (It also might make them more obtrusive for boarding.) But as stated, you should also think about pulling the boat further forward in the slip (which means changing everything a little).

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/21/2013 07:38:08

dmpilc
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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 08:35:08

I consider spring lines to be essential for safe in-water storage of a boat.I docked our boat in a double slip, bow in, starboard side next to the dock finger, that was several feet shorter than the boat, so a spring line was necessary. I used a single length of 1/2" nylon 3-strand twisted rope for the spring line, tied to a mid-dock cleat and looped over the bow cleat forward and looped over the genoa winch aft, and 3/8" nylon twisted rope for the bow and stern dock lines, two at the bow and one stern. The primary purpose of the forward spring line was to keep the bow off of the dock walkway. The primary purpose of the aft spring line was to keep the boat from floating back into the fairway. It engaged just before the bow lines would tighten up. Often I also ran a spring line from a dock cleat to the genoa cleat on the port side as a safety line. The twisted line does need to be adjusted once or twice after the initial set-up because of stretch.

Edited by - on

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 10:31:10

So since defender is in the middle of their sale - can anyone tell me what the standard dimension of the T-Track on our boats is? I see 1" x 1/8" and 1 1/4" x 3/16" as available track sizes for mid-rail cleats

Edited by - pfduffy on 03/21/2013 12:09:02

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 12:18:33

1" track

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 12:45:12

I have the SS track cleat by Schaefer (1" track on the C250 also). It's a thing of beauty, and Defender's sale price is very attractive - less than I paid for it 3 years ago.

Edited by - on

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 13:40:04

The Garhauer T-track cleats are 39.95 at CD. Garhauer was selling them for $35 at the boat show.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 13:41:02

The [url="http://www.defender.com/product.jsp?path=-1|10391|292249|312057&id=92875"]Schaefer[/url] is indeed nice--open throat and solid cast stainless--nicer than what I had. I seriously doubt you'll find a better price than Defender's during this weekend's warehouse sale, which I just attended--a madhouse!

Edited by - on

islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 15:24:18

Wouldn't a track cleat being that it is on the outside of the stanchions catch your jib sheets? I was thinking that a standard cleat mounted to the deck just aft and a little inside of the stanchion would work. With the jib sheets outside of the stanchions I would think that the stanchion would keep the cleat protected from the sheet.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5909 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 16:06:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 Wouldn't a track cleat being that it is on the outside of the stanchions catch your jib sheets? I was thinking that a standard cleat mounted to the deck just aft and a little inside of the stanchion would work. With the jib sheets outside of the stanchions I would think that the stanchion would keep the cleat protected from the sheet.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As with many things, that depends on how each boat is rigged, and how you use the cleat. The genoa track on my C&C is mounted similarly to the way it is mounted on the newer C25s, and I have the cleat moved almost all the way forward to the end of the track, and it has never fouled the sheet. My friend has a mid-ship cleat mounted in the deck of his boat, further aft than mine, and it fouled frequently, so he bent a piece of rod and attached it in a way so that it covers the cleat when he is under sail, and it prevents the line from snagging on the cleat. When he gets ready to dock, the device folds down flush with the deck, so he can tie a line to the cleat.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/21/2013 : 20:14:02

All I can say is I had my two midship cleats set toward the forward end of the tracks, by the forward windows (or deadlights if you prefer), and I never had an issue. I never even thought about it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 03/21/2013 20:14:26

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 06:39:36

The track mounted cleats on my C-25 drove me nuts while sailing, but are handy while docking. The sheets would catch about every other time that we went sailing.

The only location that I found that reduced the chances of snagging the sheets was to put the cleat just aft of the mid-ship stanchions.

I used the cheap black plastic cleats that CD sells:
http://catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1571

The locking screw on these is in a location that makes the cleat not work as well as a normal one. You can't run a line through the center and the screw head makes the line not lay nicely across the cleat. The Schaefer ones are far more expensive but have a nice hidden locking mechanism:
http://catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1766

These are on sale for a good price at Defender right now, so I'll likely buy a couple of them for my Pearson (which has no mid-ship cleats).

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 06:46:07

One of my two forward spring lines is attached to a midships track car loop via a stainless steel carabiner on the dockline. When coming in, I simply take the line from the dock and snap it on the loop.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 10:14:58

Those eye loops can't take very much horizontal load. My boat came with two broken ones that are wasting space on the track and were clearly used for spring lines at some point in the past. The ring is peened in place and will rip out in large horizontal loads. They are effective for vertical loads.

If you know of any fully forged ones I'd be interesting in trying them out. I haven't found them. Look at Schaefer Marine's catalog I bet these would work:
http://schaeferhardware.com/detail.aspx?ID=695

Also, I realized after writing my last email that you want the track mounted cleat just forward of the mid-ship stanchion, not just aft. The sheet gets hung up when it is the lazy sheet and slides forward around the cleat. Then when it becomes the active sheet and there is load on it the sheet is trapped between the stanchion and cleat. If you put the cleat forward of the stanchion then it is really hard for the lazy sheet to get trapped in there.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 13:37:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 ...If you put the cleat forward of the stanchion then it is really hard for the lazy sheet to get trapped in there.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Like this...

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4030 Posts

Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 14:49:52

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Those eye loops can't take very much horizontal load.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I use the same loop as Don but I use a different type of clip.

I put a cow hitch through it then tie the two lines to the dock, One line forward, One line aft. The line is always left on the dock so its just a matter of clipping it to the loop when docking . As far as not being strong? Held my boat through Hurricane Sandy.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/22/2013 : 19:36:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 ...The Schaefer ones are far more expensive but have a nice hidden locking mechanism:
http://catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=1766

These are on sale for a good price at Defender right now, so I'll likely buy a couple of them for my Pearson (which has no mid-ship cleats).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Defender's current price of $74 has me really tempted. I only bought one three years ago because it was $100 at the time. I don't have an absolute need for a second, but could envision myself cruising to a marina this summer where I would benefit from a second spring line. The quality of those cleats is incredible - almost a work of art. It's something I'll take with me for my next boat, but knowing my luck the next boat will have 1-1/4" tracks instead.

Edited by - TakeFive on 03/22/2013 19:43:33

pfduffy
Captain

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USA
317 Posts

Response Posted - 03/23/2013 : 18:24:24

I have 2 on order from Defender. Hopefully they will arrive before spring arrives here in the Philadelphia area!

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