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bobsta
Deckhand

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Initially Posted - 03/30/2013 : 18:15:20

#123 1976 still in great shape. So I'm wondering if I should alter my back stay from the single stay tailing to starboard (original) to the dual attached set-up that originates from two points (port and starboard) off the stern and centers the back stay over the helm - with an adjustment/tightening trolley about 6 feet about the cockpit. Having the original fall off-center to the starboard transom just kinda bugs me - I'd like it centered - but is it really worth the re-rigging and expense for a cruiser like me..?

Edited by - on

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 03/30/2013 : 21:42:21

It would bug me too. I say change it.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 04:52:02

Unless you plan to install an adjustable back stay, I would leave it alone. I have sailed with both and cannot tell the difference, except for the adjustable feature if you plan to race.

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islander
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 05:37:33

If you just like to cruise I wouldn't bother. I don't think our masts are that bendable to really see much of a difference. I have a single and to be honest I'm glad there is one less wire to have to negotiate around.

Edited by - on

cshaw
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Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 06:16:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by islander
 If you just like to cruise I wouldn't bother. I don't think our masts are that bendable to really see much of a difference. I have a single and to be honest I'm glad there is one less wire to have to negotiate around.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

After 50+ years of sailing, racing and cruising, I think an adjustable backstay is one of the simplest ways you can help make your boat sail "better" as the wind increases.

"Better" by my definition is more balanced and efficient. Racers do not like excessive weather helm and neither should cruisers or day sailors (unless you just like to fight a loaded tiller!!) Better to just have a light touch on the helm no matter if you are racing or not! A balanced rudder does NOT get rid of weather help, it simply reduces the forces on the tiller by the way...... So dragging a rudder thru the water at a big angle slows you down and makes your boat perform less well.

The benefit of an adjustable backstay for boats like ours is primarily to actually tighten the forestay as the wind comes up, without having to have it permanently really tight. A tighter forestay has less "sag". Sag allows the draft in the sail to move aft. Increasing wind also moves the draft aft even with a perfectly straight forestay. The effect of the draft moving aft is to increase weather helm. Tightening an adjustable backstay decreases the forestay sag, and tightening the jib halyard help pull the draft forward in the cloth itself. The effects can be quite dramatic...

Boats that have jib furling gear quite often cannot tighten their jib halyard more, but a straighter forestay will go a long way towards helping to reduce weather help and improve your pointing at the same time! Yes, you can partially furl your jib, but for most all roller furling jibs, the jib actually gets more draft as its rolled, with the net effect you have a smaller but less flat sail and a big lump" at the leading edge which kills efficiency (which can partially balance the increased fullness, but kills pointing.). So a tighter backstay can actually allow you to end up rolling up less jib, which reduces the rolled up sail shape degradation.

A fractional rig (where the forstay does not attach at the masthead), get an additional benefit from an adjustable backstay since it induces mast bend also. That mast bend has the effect of pulling the draft forward in the main, which has the same effect as moving the draft forward in the jib.

Boom vangs are also in the same family of easy things to add and use that makes your boat not only more comfortable to sail, but also sail better (both are good things IMHO).

Not all "racing" things should be shunned by cruisers!!! (unless you just like to fight your boat more and have it not sail as efficiently as the wind comes up....

Cheers!

Chuck

Edited by - cshaw on 03/31/2013 06:17:04

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 06:59:10

The backstay doesn't affect the straightness or the erectness (laterally) of the mast. The lowers make the mast straight, and the uppers make it erect laterally. The backstay prevents the mast from falling forward, and, by adjusting backstay tension, you can increase or reduce the amount of headstay sag, which increases or reduces the power of the sails, and you can also bend the mast slightly and flatten the sails, which depowers the sails and moves the center of effort aft, which reduces weather helm.

Thus, the fact that the single backstay is offset a bit doesn't change the shape of the rig in any way that affects the sailing of the boat.

That having been said, each of us brings our own set of values to this sport. For some of us, the highest value is the ability to relax and enjoy our time with our family and friends and the environment, and others enjoy the challenges and "mysteries" of searching for near perfection in the trim of the sails and performance of the boat. Some of the latter types are racers, and some are cruisers, who are motivated by a desire to make faster, safer passages.

An adjustable backstay gives you the ability to instantly change the tuning of the rig from loose to taut, and to move the center of effort forward or aft, without using tools, with just the flick of the wrist. That gives you the ability to instantly power up or depower the rig through a wider range of wind conditions. Racers and cruisers who value those abilities use a backstay adjuster frequently. If you are considering whether to invest in an adjustable backstay, the question is whether that improved performance justifies the expense. That's a question that we weigh according to our individual values.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 03/31/2013 07:04:12

pastmember
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Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 14:40:05

Well said Chuck.
Steve, I think your first group of sailors should get pontoon boats and drive Camrys.

"For some of us, the highest value is the ability to relax and enjoy our time with our family and friends and the environment, and others enjoy the challenges and "mysteries" of searching for near perfection in the trim of the sails and performance of the boat. "

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 03/31/2013 : 15:29:20

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Well said Chuck.
Steve, I think your first group of sailors should get pontoon boats and drive Camrys.

"For some of us, the highest value is the ability to relax and enjoy our time with our family and friends and the environment, and others enjoy the challenges and "mysteries" of searching for near perfection in the trim of the sails and performance of the boat. "
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Me too, Frank, but there's a lot to be said for family, friends and that nature thing.

Edited by - on

redeye
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Response Posted - 04/01/2013 : 04:33:07

Yet another option....

IMHO...If I were going to the trouble to add anything I'd add another backstay. I've always heard a double backstay makes you sleep easier.

Edited by - on

bobsta
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 04/13/2013 : 02:35:28

Well - thank you one and all..! Some great "food-for-thought". I have a roller-furler (older CDI) and there is sag in the forestay (Steve and cshaw), and thank you for the effects on performance lesson/reminder that sag is having on my helm. In a steady 15mph wind the weather helm is firm (which I kinda like), but definitely an issue when a gust comes up (which I don't appreciate and my wife and daughter freak on)...

Guess I'll sleep on this for a while and weigh cost and effect... But in the mean time - could I crank on the backstay and take a bit of the "intrinsic" sag out of my forestay. Tension - how much is too much..?

Thanks again guys..!

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/13/2013 : 07:02:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by bobsta
 could I crank on the backstay and take a bit of the "intrinsic" sag out of my forestay. Tension - how much is too much..?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Generally, a rig with a fixed backstay can be tuned as taut as one with a backstay adjuster. In either case, you don't ever want to over-tighten it, because, if you adjust the backstay until the forestay is bar-tight, then you will eliminate virtually all the headstay sag, and adding even more tension can't do anything more to improve the sail shape. All it will do is put excessive tension on the rig's attachment points and damage the boat structurally. On the big racers, the backstay adjusters have a tension gauge that tells you how many pounds of tension is on the rig. The simple system on small boats has no gauge, so you judge the proper amount of tension by looking at the headstay and, giving it the appropriate amount of headstay sag for the wind strength. That brings us to the question of "How do you know how much headstay sag you should have in any given wind speed?" The answer is that, once you start using the backstay adjuster, you'll learn through experience how much headstay sag is optimal. It isn't hard to figure it out when you have an opportunity to experiment with it for a little while. The bottom line, however, is that, if there is no headstay sag when under heavy load, then it is probably too taut. In that case, the better choice is probably to reduce sail area.

IMO, if you have a roller furling jib, you should be aware that a furler generally becomes harder to roll in if you have too much tension on the backstay adjuster. That should be taken into account when you decide how much tension to apply.

You can tune your rig every bit as well without a backstay adjuster as with one. The special advantage that a backstay adjuster gives you is the ability to radically change your rig tuning almost instantly, with a flick of the wrist, while underway, and without getting out your tools. Thus, if the wind is gradually increasing, you can gradually reduce headstay sag on the windward leg, to depower the rig and keep the boat on it's feet. When you turn to run downwind, you can ease the backstay and increase headstay sag for more power downwind. In the gusts, while sailing to windward, instead of dumping the mainsheet in the gusts, to keep the boat on it's feet, you can increase the headstay tension with the backstay adjuster.

The approach that I took to sailing to windward in increasing winds was to gradually increase backstay tension as the wind built. In the gusts, I eased the traveler instead of the mainsheet. When the gust abated, I brought the traveler up. I only dumped the mainsheet as a last resort.

You can get by just fine without a backstay adjuster. For many years, I didn't know how to tune my rig with the backstay adjuster, so I just tuned the rig as if it didn't have a backstay adjuster, and never used it. Nevertheless, the boat was so fast and won so many races with it's rig tuned that way that it was embarrassing. When I finally learned how to tune the rig, I loved the backstay adjuster, but I can't honestly say it made the boat any faster. I think the benefit I gained was that the backstay adjuster made it easier to depower the boat quickly in strong winds and gusts.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9087 Posts

Response Posted - 04/13/2013 : 08:44:40

If someone is leaning toward either a tight fixed rig or using a backstay adjuster to crank it down on an older C-25, I'd think hard about upgrading the stem fitting to the one Catalina started using maybe round 1983 (?), and which Catalina Direct sells (with and without an integrated anchor roller). It has a tang that extends under the rub-rail and down the bow about 10", where it's thru-bolted to the bow. A couple of years ago somebody posted pictures here that dramatically illustrated the reason behind that upgrade--i.e. a piece of the deck was ripped up by the stem fitting that was bolted only to the deck.

Note that the chainplates for your upper shrouds and backstay are all bolted to vertical surfaces.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/13/2013 08:47:57

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 04/13/2013 : 15:15:51

+ 10

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cshaw
Captain

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Response Posted - 04/16/2013 : 06:05:56

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
When I finally learned how to tune the rig, I loved the backstay adjuster, but I can't honestly say it made the boat any faster. I think the benefit I gained was that the backstay adjuster made it easier to depower the boat quickly in strong winds and gusts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Steve,
I agree with most of your post, but I think there are some "qualifiers" as to whether an adjustable backstay makes a boat "faster". I keep Confetti's entire rig VERY loose by most people's standards, and I have found that makes her much faster in light to moderate winds. Not so loose that the mast noticeably sags way to leeward, but loose enough the leeward shrouds are all slack when sailing close hauled. Being able to tighten the backstay (and hence the forestay) makes an enormous difference in the boats pointing and helm balance as the wind increases. Both of those things do increase the boats "speed" around the course.....Pointing is huge for finishing a weather leg faster, and a balanced helm increases boat speed by not dragging the rudder sideways as often.....

The change in power between a taut forestay and a slack one can be quite dramatic in choppy water. Galveston Bay builds a short steep chop that was murder on Cat 25 upwind performance, so when we would hit a series of choppy water, or when "downshifting" during a tack, John Cameron (of Cameron Sails) taught me to pop loose the backstay to "power up", and when we built our speed back up to then shift "up" for speed, and tighten up the backstay. Of course most folks would not be playing their backstay tension like that unless they were serious about their racing (we were!), but I can tell you it can make a huge difference in upwind performance.

Roller furling is a great addition to most boats, but roller furling does not always make for good roller "reefing" unless the sail is specifically made to get rid of the middle "belly" that forms. A tighter forestay from a tighter backstay can sometimes allow you to roll up less sail, which most times keeps the sail shape better. As to the extra tension from a backstay adjuster making it harder to roller furl, I suggest to folks they simply ease off the backstay tension when rolling up the jib, and then re-tighten the backstay afterwards if they were rolling up to just shorten sail.

Yes, its another infernal string to mess with, but its a small price to pay to have the boat much more comfortable (IMHO) to sail if you are cruising, and also performing better if you are racing. (and playing with all those strings is part of sailing isn't it? <grin>)

I also do not like to keep the rig tight while simply at the dock, so allowing it to "relax" I think is important (but Confetti and I both are not spring chickens any more!!!). Around 1980 I saw a Catalina 30 with her foredeck peeled up, so I had a long tang welded to my stem fitting that runs down the leading edge of the bow. It was not expensive to do that, and if you have a boat without the newer stem fitting, I would highly recommend you get a new one or simply have a drilled tang welded on (make a template to get the angle right!) whether you use a backstay adjuster or not!

Cheers!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/16/2013 : 07:52:13

Chuck, I used essentially the same techniques that you describe with my backstay adjuster.

When I wrote that post, I was thinking more in terms of "boat speed," rather than "time to the finish line." The potential for raw boat speed of a sailboat, and for it's ability to point, is limited by it's design. Sometimes people imagine that a backstay adjuster will make their boat foot "faster" or point higher. It won't. If a rig with a fixed backstay is tuned properly, the boat will point just as high, and foot just as fast as one with an adjustable backstay.

Nevertheless, even when we're talking in terms of time to the finish line, I think a boat with a fixed backstay is usually competitive, for all practical purposes, with one with an adjustable backstay. The special value of an adjustable backstay is that it lets you power the rig up or down quickly and easily. There are many different ways that you can power up or down when you change from a closehauled course to one that's off the wind, or vice versa. You can power up by easing a backstay adjuster, or you can power up by easing the jib and perhaps the mainsail halliards, and the mainsail outhaul. Either method will increase the power generated by the sails, but a backstay adjuster is much easier to do. It takes more effort to ease a halliard, and to re-tension it at the end of the downwind leg. If you want to be competitive, there are times when you must power up or power down. If you don't do it with a backstay adjuster, then you have to do it in another way.

If you were racing Confetti with an adjustable backstay, and I was racing on a boat without one, we would both be powering up and down at about the same times, but you would be using the backstay adjuster almost effortlessly to do it, and I would be working my tail off, but achieving the same general results, by adjusting halliards, downhauls and/or outhauls.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 04/16/2013 : 09:12:35

Steve is right on again... sail your own boat. Add controls if you want them. If you find you are powering up and powering down a lot by adjusting halyards, and sheets... then you may want to consider an adjustable backstay.

Race boats have multiple controls because it gives the skipper/crew thousands of ways to control sail shape. They aren't the ONLY ways... and any combination of "other" controls can get you there.

Example... if you had no traveler, how would you change the angle of attack? Simple, you would use your mainsheet, and vang. It's harder and has to be worked together, but you could do it. The traveler is an "easy" way to adjust Angle of attack.

The Adjustable Backstay is a quick way to adjust mast bend (in fractionals), and headstay sag (all), and draft of the genoa/jib. There are other ways to do those things if you don't have a quickly adjustable backstay. So not the end of the world.

PS: A traveler is almost useless downwind. so you are still using mainsheet, and vang to adjust angle of attack.

Edited by - on

Prospector
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Canada
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Response Posted - 04/16/2013 : 10:14:48

FWIW, the backstay is the single most expensive component if you replace your standing rigging. The backstay alone is $450 while the rest of the rig is $650. (Catalina Direct) http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_ID=98

I see that CD has a retrofit kit to convert a fixed backstay to an adjustable for $350. not sure what is in that. http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=683&ParentCat=98

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 04/16/2013 : 13:38:26

Or you simply have your backstay shortened and then add a purchase that is the split, very cheap to do. Like this or any variation on this.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=659&ParentCat=95

Remember, you can now buy line that is as strong as wire.

Edited by - pastmember on 04/16/2013 13:48:25

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 04/17/2013 : 06:07:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Or you simply have your backstay shortened and then add a purchase that is the split, very cheap to do. Like this or any variation on this.

http://www.catalinadirect.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=659&ParentCat=95

Remember, you can now buy line that is as strong as wire.

All you do is pay for the new swaged eye and you probably have everything else in a drawer. I always like a good place to use the original mainsheet or vang blocks so you have an excuse to upgrade one of those to nicer new blocks.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's a really good mod for a boat that doesn't have a backstay adjuster. It could be done relatively inexpensively. For those who store their boat with the mast down in the off season, you could remove the backstay, have it shortened and a new fitting swaged on, and then re-install it with the new hardware in the spring without missing any on-water time. Probably the hardest part is in figuring out how to re-tune the rig in the manner required by the backstay adjuster, but those of us who have used them can help with that.

When you have a backstay adjuster, you start thinking about when it would be helpful to use it. That gets you thinking about sail shape, and when you can really understand the relationship between sail shape and improved speed or pointing, and when you realize all the ways that you can optimize the performance of your boat by paying attention to sail trim, you'll become a better sailor.

There are a couple mods that I can think of that strongly tend to improve your skills simply by virtue of the fact that your boat has them. A backstay adjuster is one of them. The other is a loose-footed mainsail. IMO, the loose-footed mainsail isn't substantially better or faster than the old attached-foot mainsail, but it forces you to start thinking about the shape of the mainsail by use of the outhaul. Many new sailors never adjust the outhaul of their mainsail, thinking it doesn't matter much. When you are induced to think about those things, lights begin to come on in your mind.

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