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Results of inspection catalina 25

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mycat
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Initially Posted - 04/02/2013 : 09:03:10

I had the boat surveyed and she was found to be in AVERAGE condition. Marked value was estimated to be $ 7500, which is what I had offered (?).
These are the main issues found:
1. there are obvious signs of water intrusion at the chainplates and the cabin port and starbaoard portlights.
2. there are signs of corrosion of the keel nuts.
3. eventhough there were no soft spots on the deck, the humidity readings were high on the port side.
4. mast lights not working.
5. spider cracks on the deck fiberglass
6. rubber seals for cabin hatch an pop top are loose and possibly leaking.
7. manual bilge pump was not tested.
8 AC power not tested.
9 visual distress signs are all expired.
Many more smaller maintenance issues were listed
I also felt somewhat uncomfortable because the broker (who was also present) and surveyor seemed to me that were old friends. At the end of the survey, I confessed to my wife that I thought the estimate value was going to be the amount that had been agrred upon ($7500) just based on this interaction.I was not surprised to see that I was correct when I saw the results of the survey.
The question is wheter this Catalina 25 1986 in AVERAGE condition, in need of many small repairs, may be larger ones (changing keel nuts and bolts, changing bulkheads if they are soft once the chainplates are removed) is worth buying for $7500.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 09:10:07

You should find a very clean boat at that price. Sounds like a $4000 boat to me.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 11:01:18

I think for 7500.00, you should be able to find a boat in slightly above average condition, and, that has a larger outboard. Were the bulkheads soft? What is the condition of the bottomsides?

If you can swing a bit more, there is the pick of the litter for sale in the swap meet:

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26468

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 12:15:22

What sail inventory is included, how old are the sails, what model and age is the motor? Those are very important things to evaluate the price on a Catalina 25. Since these boats are rarely worth more than $10,000 just a new set of sails and a motor can get pretty close to the market value of a complete boat.

I think it's pretty common for a surveyor to put an estimated price on the boat that is the same as the offer/asking price. Their job is less to do the market analysis, and more to help you identify if the boat is in good enough condition to buy or not, and to help you identify an immediate TODO list.

When I bought my Pearson the surveyor's estimate was $XXX (which happened to be the asking price) if a small list of major things was fixed. This made it easy for me to negotiate down the price to cover those things. I bought my boat in a smaller town that only had 3 surveyors, so the surveyor and broker clearly knew each other (even though I picked out the surveyor myself). The only way I could have avoided that was by paying another couple hundred and having someone drive in from Seattle.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 13:05:44

If water has damaged the bulkheads anchoring the upper shroud chainplates, the damage should be easy to see on both sides of the bulkheads. In any case, the shroud should be re-sealed where they go through the deck.

Some moisture in some parts of the deck is pretty "average"--there are probably some lifeline stanchions or other hardware in that area that need re-bedding, which is normal (although infrequent) maintenance. If the deck feels solid, it's probably no biggie--just something to attend to.

The seals for the pop-top and forward hatch can be replaced easily. Anyway, the molded gutter around the hatch and the ridge around the pop-top should prevent leakage in anything short of a gale.

The keel bolts and nuts on an '86 fin are stainless steel, and should not be rusty (although they might be discolored a little, and there could be rust-colored stains around them--that's normal). If there are signs of "crevice corrosion" (tiny cracks, which can happen to stainless), the nuts can probably be removed and replaced one at a time when the boat is resting on the keel. There may be "galling" between the nuts and the bolts, which can be mitigated somewhat with various release agents.

A few spider cracks are almost unavoidable at that age, especially in areas such as cockpit corners where the gelcoat was a little too thick, and shrinks from sun exposure and age. That's cosmetic and can be repaired with gelcoat patch in a tube.

Rewiring the mast is a common requirement--there are many threads here on the subject.

Flares are an issue every few years--not a decision factor here.

Any word about the sails?

You can ask the surveyor what he based his value estimate on--probably the NADA Guide. $7500 is higher than the NADA "average" condition price around here ($6900). I'd discount it some for the below-average outboard the owner chose, even if it's in like-new condition--the surveyor probably didn't take that into account. "Average" on that boat is an 8-9.9 hp x-long with an alternator. The 6 hp might be adequate for a lake--I wouldn't recommend it for the Gulf. (It should be easy to sell.)

The broker should have stayed out of that inspection altogether except to make the boat accessible. The surveyor shouldn't know anything about your deal or be in contact with the broker--he's working for you, and the broker is working for the seller. Of course they know each other--they're working in the same "industry" day-to-day, but they're doing nobody any favors by showing any hints of collusion.

All in all, my impression is you're looking at a $6000-6500 boat. She'll take some work in some "normal" areas... She's almost 30 years old, and the care for her has been....... spotty. Your local market could be different from mine, so take this with many grains of salt.

Remember, B.O.A.T. stands for Break Out Another Thousand.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/02/2013 13:10:52

trptelf
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2013 : 18:32:38

Just for comparison since I have purchased two of these in the last few years:

My first Catalina 25, a 1987 Wing Keel/Tall Rig with 1987 Johnson 9.9 with inboard controls and alternator, CDI roller furling, and trailer (with brakes but they weren't in great shape) was had for $5000. Sails were old but in great shape. There was no spinnaker or pole. No stove, no curtains (possibly a connection here?). No potty. No anchor. Some leaks needed repaired, one problem issue was due to poor installation of inboard controls leaking into cockpit floor. No working electronics. Boom vang missing. Mast needed rewired. Bought about three years ago.

My second Catalina 25, a 1988 Fin Keel/Standard Rig with inboard, roller furling (an old but usable system), pop top curtain, original but working electronics, old but working sails, and trailer. I rebuilt the pumps on the sinks and head, resealed the depth gauge thru hull and need to do the knotmeter thru hull this spring, replaced VHF antenna, and replaced bilge pump. I still need to repack the stuffing box and replace the cutlass bearing. Boat purchase price - $9000. A year and a half ago. I didn't get the spinnaker and pole for this price though.

Both boats cleaned up great and had solid keel bolts. The $5000 boat, even though a great boat, took months of work to get into shape (and lots of help from the very helpful members of this web site). The $9000 boat was ready to sail once the depth thru hull was resealed.

My first boat had the traveler placed right in front of the companionway. Will definitely be making that $500 upgrade on the new boat at some point.

I too thought that I would "move up" but I love my Catalina 25 both sailing, and docked/anchored out with the pop top up. It helps that I am 5'2 1/2" and can stand straight up in my boat if not wearing shoes.

Erin

Edited by - trptelf on 04/02/2013 18:45:25

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 04:03:15

The price seems to high for what you are getting. I paid $6000.00 for a 1988 Wing Keel with new barrier coat and bottom paint. No damp or water intrusion areas except the seal around the front hatch where there was damage to the V-birth cushions. Inboard diesel with 406 hours. The teak needed refinishing. All electrical worked. After the sale I had the sails refurbished for a total of 360.00. Bimini and boom tent in like new condition. Pop top cover was missing. The trailer needed new bunks and lights repaired.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 04:43:41

Here is one for you to compare. I have no connection with the boat or owner and in fact don't know anything about it. But you could buy this and still have money left to do whatever needed:

http://miami.craigslist.org/pbc/boa/3711343986.html

Edited by - on

mycat
Deckhand

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USA
7 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 05:18:43

I never thought I was going to get so much support from this forum.What I have learned here in the past week is a lot more that I would have dreamed of.Thanks and keep posting your comments.I have decided not to buy this one (I will have to swallow the bitter pill of having paid for the survey).
How else can I get an idea of whether the boat is worth the money short of a survey?

Edited by - on

JohnP
Master Marine Consultant

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1520 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 05:28:18

That boat above has new sails.

My good old boat came with 6 month old, Ullman sails. It's been a joy to sail with them, and the 2 year old 9.9 hp Honda outboard that came with the boat made the $4500 price unbeatable for me.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 05:40:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">How else can I get an idea of whether the boat is worth the money short of a survey?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think you will need to determine that, then use a survey as a confirmation, or not, that you are getting the right boat for you.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 07:18:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mycat
 ...I will have to swallow the bitter pill of having paid for the survey...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">If $350(?) saved you from paying $1,000+ too much for a bigger project than you could handle, the pill was sweeter than you think, and you learned a bunch in the process. You're more ready now for the next one.

Keep talking to us (and other forums), and look at as much as you can. Take price our comments with lots of salt--markets are somewhat regional, and are rebounding with the economy. A C-25 will be competing with other similar-sized boats, not just C-25s. That's why NADA wants to know where a boat is. The C-25 evolved in subtle ways over its 14 years of production, so newer models are nicer--not just less old. And condition is a complex factor that is difficult to generalize.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 04/03/2013 07:26:14

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 08:47:38

If you are at all handy then get the Don Casey book "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" (or something like that). It'll help you figure out what you need to check for to do your own pre-survey.

I'm pretty handy and found that I was able to do a pretty good survey on a Catalina 25 by myself. My Pearson had enough extra systems (and cost a bunch more), so I hired someone to survey it.

I agree that pricing is regional. In Seattle if a friend were buying a new 25' boat I'd tell them to plan on spending about $10k on the boat (either by buying a $4k boat and doing another $6k of work making it run well, or by buying an $8k boat and spending $2k making it run well) and at least $3000/year on moorage and incidentals. In other parts of the country this can be either a more expensive or much less expensive hobby. If you post your location then you can get regional advice.

Some lucky people do find good condition boats for very cheap prices around here, but typically the cheap boats haven't been used in years and require work (and money) to bring them back to health.

Also, I would recommend looking for direct sales on boats in this price range. Most brokers have a minimum $2000 commission (or 10%). On your $7500 boat more than 25% of the money was going to the broker, not the seller, which leaves little wiggle room on prices. Sold direct on Craigslist that boat would probably have had an asking price of under $6000.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 09:32:54

Here's a link to Don Casey's [url="http://content.westmarine.com/documents/pdfs/SailboatMaintenanceManual.pdf"]library of books online with West Marine[/url]. It begins with Alex's excellent suggestion of "Inspecting the aging sailboat", which is exactly the book I used when purchasing my WK.

Edit: this is only the first 29 pages of the book, but still a good primer on what to expect from the whole book, which is well worth the purchase price.

Edited by - delliottg on 04/03/2013 09:34:40

Prospector
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
3159 Posts

Response Posted - 04/03/2013 : 10:19:56

Huh. That list looks pretty common for our boats to be honest.

Who has had to deal with leaky windows, raise your hand... Yup, me too.

The question isn't what is wrong, so much as how bad is it, IMHO.

Why didn't the surveyor test the bilge pump? All he had to do was dump some water in there and pump it out.

Around here, I would put his estimate right on the money. I don't think a bulkhead swap is as complicated as you are thinking. From what I understand they aren't even glassed in on our boats, but I may be wrong. The sheet of plywood is $400 up here, then you copy the old to make the new and screw it in.

Was this the one with an L-dinette? If so the year surprises me.

Edited by - on

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