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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Boat Balance

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William Matley
1st Mate

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52 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/26/2003 : 21:23:35

This summer I had my boat moored at my newly purchased slip. It is the first time I have left my boat in the water for any extended period of time, greater than 2 weeks. With time to observe, "Chortle" at a calm water mooring, I noticed that any rainwater would pool in the forward portion of the cockpit floor.

I am a big guy (270#) and when I stood on the transom, my weight is unable to move all of the water back to the aft scuppers.

Now I know, the first thing you might suspect is too much gear stowed in the forward section of the boat. But I had nothing-special stowed forward, 5 lifejackets under the V berth, and a couple pillows and bed sheets! I also have no concern about the anchor locker, I have a new Fortress anchor that is super lightweight, and a smaller Danforth as a backup.

I notice that if I crank up the keel, I can level out the boat and if I continue to bring up the keel, I can cause the rain water to run aft to the scuppers. This forces me to leave the boat moored in her slip, with the keel partly up when I'd much rather leave the boat with the keel fully extended and the tension off the cable.

My question is have other Catalina 25SK owners experienced the came condition with their boat or is this boat balance unique to mine?

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2003 : 22:22:43

I could see from the waterline 'wear' on my boat when I got her that she had been riding a bit bow down. Ditto on evidence of water pooling in the front corners of the cockpit etc.

I had been curious about it... maybe they tend to sit a bit low in the bow. I won't have mine in the water for a month or two so It will be awhile before I find out for myself.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 00:32:06

"Quiet Time" is the same. The cockpit floor does not slope aft enough for really good drainage. To get all the water to drain out after a washdown, I have to stand on the coaming above the outboard, as far aft as it is possible to get and still be on the boat. I too have been careful to move as much weight aft as possible, and never put anything heavy in the V-berth. I think this is common to all swing keel 25's built before the big design changes in the '86 model year. When "Quiet Time" is parked at a dock, she always seems to sit slightly bow-down, and is visibly more level in the water with the swing keel cranked up, but I never leave the keel up, due to the risk of a cable break. Keel is only up when the boat is about to be put back on the trailer.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

tblanco
Deckhand

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16 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 01:02:29

Hi Bill!

I'm no expert on the matter but in one of the discussions here late last year I believe someone very intelligently explained that Catalina was designed to be slightly bow heavy. I don't recall the reason, perhaps to counter the weight of passangers at the back.

I too had asked myself this question since my swing keel which I kept in the water in San Diego Bay for a "long" while was stained in an uneven line with respect to the rest of the boat (keel down).At first I thought my anchor line had been too short with not enough play, and this pulled the bow down. However one of the many intelligent participants in this web page convinced me otherwhise.
I read the explanation by coincidence, I hadn't asked about this.

Perhaps the person who wrote this explanation will read this and help out.

Edited by - on

CatalinaGuy
1st Mate

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USA
55 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 11:27:08

I have the same issue on my '83 swing keel. I also noticed that it lists a bit to starbord. I assumed that this was due to the uneven weight of the freshwater tank under the forward end of the starbord settee. I was going to empty the tank and see how it changes the trim.

One other problem I have is that when I crank the keel up, I get water running out from inside into the aft quarterberth. I guess there's a leak that pools the water at the aft end of the boat. As the stern dips when the keel is raised, the water builds up and runs out. Not sure where the water is coming in yet, but it's on the to-do list to track it down.

Doug Hibberd, 'Shiraz'
C25 SK/SR 1983
Austin, TX

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1772 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 12:19:24

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... One other problem I have is that when I crank the keel up, I get water running out from inside into the aft quarterberth.

Doug Hibberd, 'Shiraz'
C25 SK/SR 1983
Austin, TX
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Hi Doug,

A few months ago there was a thread about water coming up through the rubber hose when the keel is cranked up. In that thread the comment was that it only happened when the boat was being backed up while the keel was being raised. So far, I can vouch for that ... I haven't had any water come up through the rubber hose unless I was backing the boat while the keel was being raised.

I don't think anyone ever figured out why this happens ... it sure is a mystery to me! Anyway, I seldom raise my keel, and when I do, I sure don't try to raise it while backing up any more.

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/27/2003 : 21:39:10

It SOUNDS (to the uninitiated--like me) as if putting the keel down alters the center of buoyancy of the hull (ballast weight moves forward) and therefore the bow goes down slightly, ergo the cockpit no longer slopes aft. Since my slip is very shallow at low water, I have no choice but to leave the keel fully up, regardless of the consequences that may ensue. I would be VERY interested to know if those who have RETROFITTED to a wing keel (my dream) find that the designed keel leaves the boat properly trimmed at rest without crew. My cockpit drains perfectly at present, of course one day the cable may part and cockpit drains will be the least of my concerns, godspeed, ron srsk #2343 Orion 1981, SW FL

Edited by - on

osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2003 : 06:02:14

Ron,

That's a good question.

osmepneo was retrofitted for a wing keel and in four seasons, including the ends of a hurricane I have not water accumulating in the forward part of the cockpit. It all, always, drains out through the two aft cockpit plugs.

On my 22 the cockpit drain plugs were forward (I believe) and obviously I never had this problem. That being the case, I wonder why when atalina designed the 25 they put cockpit drain aft? I wonder where it the drains are in the 27?

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/28/2003 : 14:12:57

"I wonder where the drains are in the 27?"

From this picture of a C27, the drains are in the aft part of the cockpit. Those are drains and not trash cans, right?

<img src="http://newimages.yachtworld.com/1/0/0/5/5/1005531_5.jpg" border=0>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - dlucier on 01/28/2003 14:14:09

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2003 : 00:21:39

>Since my slip is very shallow at low water, I have no
>choice but to leave the keel fully up, regardless of
>the consequences that may ensue.

Ron -
If "Orion" is in a salt water marina, and you are not already doing this, I would strongly recommend you replace your keel cable every year to 18 months, assuming you probably do a bottom job about that often. Leaving the keel up over long periods is pretty risky, as I guess you are aware. CAUTION: There have been reports of failures involving the keel eye bolt that the cable attaches to. So, the cable itself could be brand new, and you could still suffer a keel free-fall accident from corrosion failure of that bolt.

You mentioned the swing-to-wing conversion in your post; I just contacted Catalina and priced the kit, thinking I might do this on my '79. The kit is $1750 at the factory, Shipping it to Florida will cost you a few hundred more, I suppose. Our local sailboat repair shop (there's only one here), quoted me $1000 to install it. This being based on their installation time estimate of 16 man-hours, at $75 per hour. I think this is just for removal of the old keel and bolt-up of the wing. I don't think it includes fairing the underwater join or plugging and re-finishing the holes they have to drill through the cabin sole. The number of new holes depends on the model year of the boat and what size are the original factory bilge access ports. Some of the new keel bolts may be accessible under the existing access plates, others may have to have a new hole drilled.

The next time you haul out, try to remove the keel eye bolt and check it's condition (if you are not already doing this regularly). Since the keel itself is just plain cast iron, it is almost certain that there is some corrosion in the metal in contact with the bolt threads. The question is how much, and is it bad enough to compromise the security of the bolt.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

luckystar
Navigator

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USA
236 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2003 : 01:35:42

I, too, had wondered why my boat was bow down with nothing there to weigh it down. I talked to one of the several structural engineers in my yacht club and he said, after owning a C25 in the 80's that he discussed it with the factory. The reason is that the boat was design so that with the keel all the way down and an average of two adult (of average size) males in the cockpit, the boat would even out proper. I tend to have mine cranked up a little while single handing (I weigh 160lbs.) as I've noticed that she performs a little better, not so nose down. I also leave mine in the slip with 16 cranks on the keel (half way up) to get the cockpit to drain. I'm not so worried about wear at 16 as I use the boat year round and change cables about every 3-4 years (due this march). My thought is, it's the best (or worst) of both worlds. Less distance to fall (God forbid). Up it drains properly. Works for me. Hope that helps.

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR

Edited by - on

William Matley
1st Mate

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52 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2003 : 20:46:59

Thanks to all who replied to this message. It's very encouraging to know that "Chortle" is built properly and while it's a problem, it's not an anomaly.

I think I'll work on installing a forward drain as a new spring project and let my keel hang down in a safe position. If I get it done I'll share the results.

Edited by - on

ronrryan
Admiral

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USA
561 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2003 : 21:15:15

Larry, the slip for Orion at the local yacht club has about a 2 foot tide range normally, but under certain conditions of wind and tide during the year may be much less. Sometimes--rarely, thank god--Orion is hard aground and slightly heeled. Much of the time there is about three feet plus a coulpe inches at dead low, perhaps five feet at high water. A wing would be just fine, and eliminate concerns about cables, but my local yards are all power boat people and don't do much if any work on sailboats. St Petersburg, Fla is a full days sail to the North and has a number of yards, including a Catalina dealer, that may serve, if I can just save up enough units. The cable and keel attachment was inspewcted but not replaced last August when bottompainted. I am hoping the next inspection will be when it is REMOVED for a wing. Thanks for the tips on maintenance, much appreciated, Ron #2343 1981 Orion SW FL

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tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 09:06:57

William,

With the swing fully deployed you have 1500 pounds pulling the bow lower than when it is retracted. Even a fellow your size might not be expected to balance out the major portion of the swing moving forward and aft. Just try retracting the keel when you have water forward in the cockpit and see if that doesn't get the water moving aft.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni

Edited by - on

Shelby
Navigator

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USA
155 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2003 : 18:43:12

I was wondering why my water line looked funny. Now I know.

Tks,
Shelby Brown
’82 C25 “Third S”, #3208, SKSR, Honda 9.9, Lake Pleasant, AZ

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