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URGENT: Forestay failure

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oregonworld
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Initially Posted - 06/10/2013 : 10:22:25

Well, after purchasing my Catalina 250 from a master sailor and very knowledgable person I found that the quick release pin that connected the forestay was questionable. He mentioned that I could replace the quick release pin with a clevis and cotter pin but that it was more than adequate. I hadn't gotten around to replacing the pin and had only taken the boat on a few short sails.

Somehow, the adjustable back stay got overloaded on the system and when the jib was unfurled and loaded the system this piece of hardware bent. The QR pin slipped out and the mast came down. Luckily it landed on my solid boom vang, no one was hurt and there seems to be no damage upon first visual inspection. This was under less than 10Knot winds.

Can anyone help me (I'm a new boat owner) to identify the diameter and names of the parts I need to repair, and upgrade with the burliest components that will fit this rigging. Please make recommendations on what to use so this will never happen again. My thoughts are that the back stay should give way before it breaks the forestay loose. This was absolutely crazy!

Also, with so much tension on the forestay, what else Should I inspect after this incident. I will do a visual on the forestay as it attaches to the mast head after repair and will backup the forestay with the job and main halyards. Also, I will inspect thouroughly the boom connection and vang.

Any pictures of the best way to secure the forestay would help tremendously.

Pretty exciting for lake sailing!

Jared

Jared Cruce
1997 250WK "Inspiration"
#299
Honda 9.9
Ashland, OR

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:08:30

Like Arlyn and John told you before, don't ever use a quick release pin again for such a critical part.

The piece that your quick release pin attaches to is unnecessary and probably the wrong type of SS. Get rid of it and don't replace.

I'm concerned that your boat has other questionable modifications, such as the adjustable backstay. I suggest you hire a professional rigger to inspect. Someone could die next time with the stuff the PO did to the boat..

Edited by - on

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:17:12

I don't own a C250, but that toggle seems out of place. I use a quick pin, because I raise and lower my mast on every trip in and out. On my C25, the u-strap on the bottom of the furling drum is connected directly to the stem:

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:26:58

How much time does it take to attach a cotter ring? How much does it cost to keep a few spares?

This is a no-brainer to me.

Edited by - on

oregonworld
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:50:06

So attach the stay to the U shaped piece and not the wishbone shaped piece? Is that the uneccessary piece in the system you are referring to (wishbone)?<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 Like Arlyn and John told you before, don't ever use a quick release pin again for such a critical part.

The piece that your quick release pin attaches to is unnecessary and probably the wrong type of SS. Get rid of it and don't replace.

I'm concerned that your boat has other questionable modifications, such as the adjustable backstay. I suggest you hire a professional rigger to inspect. Someone could die next time with the stuff the PO did to the boat..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

oregonworld
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:57:06

Obviously, no brainer is subjective as a well seasoned sailor and boat builder who built several dozen Swan 50's and other members of this forum are using a QR Pin. I just want the safest and burliest system recommendations. Thanks for your help.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 How much time does it take to attach a cotter ring? How much does it cost to keep a few spares?

This is a no-brainer to me.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:59:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oregonworld
 So attach the stay to the U shaped piece and not the wishbone shaped piece? Is that the uneccessary piece in the system you are referring to (wishbone)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Typing on a phone sucks.

Edited by - on

oregonworld
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 11:59:04

I live in Southern Oregon. There are no professional riggers within 3 hours drive. I will take some photos of the back stay system and perhaps someone can give me some feedback. Thanks a ton to everyone! <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 Like Arlyn and John told you before, don't ever use a quick release pin again for such a critical part.

The piece that your quick release pin attaches to is unnecessary and probably the wrong type of SS. Get rid of it and don't replace.

I'm concerned that your boat has other questionable modifications, such as the adjustable backstay. I suggest you hire a professional rigger to inspect. Someone could die next time with the stuff the PO did to the boat..
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Edited by - on

oregonworld
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 12:01:47

Copy that!!! One of the things that may have happened as I diagnose this near catastrophe, is that there is a bimini mounted on the bat and it was folded, covered and secured to the back stay.

How do you stow the bimini when you are sailing and don't want it up? I can't see the windex at all when sailing with the biminit up. Any pics would be very helpful.

Jared

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oregonworld
 So attach the stay to the U shaped piece and not the wishbone shaped piece? Is that the uneccessary piece in the system you are referring to (wishbone)?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Yes. Sorry I wasn't more clear. Typing on a phone sucks.

Edited by - on

djbano
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 13:19:59

This is scary. You should have the user guide which shows what things are supposed to look like. Even though I have a jib on furler and won't need another halyard to fly a kite/asm, I have been planning on installing a headstay halyard that runs to the pulpit in case of any headstay failure. I purchased a longer pin so that I could fit the biggest cotter ring I could. I cursory inspection of shroud connections to the deck takes less than a minute and something that everyone should do every day you go out for a sail. Once in a while I peer at the masthead with binoculars to make sure things look OK up there. A quick glance to make sure the pintles and gudgeons are fine when tilting the outboard down to depart is a good idea too. NOBODY should assume that critical safety items are OK because they were when launched at the beginning of the season. Losing the rig aft when people and children are in the cockpit would be a nightmare.

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oregonworld
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 14:06:31

Please let me know or post a pic of the headstay halyard when you get it done.

thanks,
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by djbano
 This is scary. You should have the user guide which shows what things are supposed to look like. Even though I have a jib on furler and won't need another halyard to fly a kite/asm, I have been planning on installing a headstay halyard that runs to the pulpit in case of any headstay failure. I purchased a longer pin so that I could fit the biggest cotter ring I could. I cursory inspection of shroud connections to the deck takes less than a minute and something that everyone should do every day you go out for a sail. Once in a while I peer at the masthead with binoculars to make sure things look OK up there. A quick glance to make sure the pintles and gudgeons are fine when tilting the outboard down to depart is a good idea too. NOBODY should assume that critical safety items are OK because they were when launched at the beginning of the season. Losing the rig aft when people and children are in the cockpit would be a nightmare.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

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John Russell
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 15:00:23

You potentially dodged a bullet here.

I really don't care how many people might use a quick release on such a critical part. My life is worth the 30 seconds it might take me (on a very slow day) to remove a cotter ring from a clevis pin. The risk/benefit just doesn't work for me.

I think the PO was trying to turn our cruiser into a racer. I'm guessing he was trying to get as much rake in the mast as he could for whatever advantage he thought it would give him. Or, he was trying to compensate for lee helm that might occur if the mast is leaning too far forward.

In any case, I'd get rid of the extra piece and rig the boat so that the stick is straight. Sail the boat for a while and then make fore and aft adjustments as might become necessary.

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 15:03:04

I'll try to answer the question about the back stay tensioner. Shortly after the release of the 250, a number of us were upgrading systems including adding backstay tensioners. What we discovered is that the modified B&R rig (masthead forestay rather than fractional) isn't very well suited for one. While a tensioner can allow running a loose rig and firming up the foresail on the fly... it does nothing to firm up the main and in fact makes it fuller.

For the most part, the rig on a 250 should be tuned fairly stiff and left that way so as to be suitable for heavier air. In light air the 250 does well enough with a tight rig... especially the wing keel.

If one wishes to run a backstay tensioner, it can be done and I do it while cruising, but it requires a forward baby stay. It is a stay attached at the spreaders leading to the stem fitting. It must be rigged so as to be self retracting to front of the mast. I'll try to describe. A quality non stretching line is rigged from the spreaders to a point about one foot above the mast step. On its lower end is attached a ring. A few inches below the dangling ring, a block that positions fore and aft is riveted to the mast that turn a bungee also attached at the spreaders and then is made to the ring first going through the block and being stretched so as to pull the stay down near the block and holding the stay along the front of the mast. A circular loop if you will.

A pendant is led from the cockpit to a block at the stem fitting and then back along the deck and made to the ring. This pendant can then be set to a winch that will haul the baby stay taught between the spreaders and the stem fitting.

The baby stay is only cruiser friendly because it has to be released prior to tacking and reset after tacking. A cruiser isn't concerned about the extra time... he has lots of it and the baby stay offers some comfort of a bit of redundancy should a forestay fail, and cruisers love redundancy.

The baby stay provides for holding the center of the mast forward when a backstay tensioner is set which has the effect of loosening the uppers and thus killing the effect of the raked spreaders in holding the center of the mast forward.

Seriously, unless someone is cruising and rigs the baby stay, remove the backstay tensioner and firm up the rig for a bit of a breeze and leave it that way... unless you race of course, and then tune the rig for the expected winds on the course.

Note: The pendant line on my boat serves a double purpose for either the baby stay or the drifter downhaul.

Edited by - Arlyn Stewart on 06/10/2013 15:11:45

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 15:20:57

Here's my take on this setup

The gap between the strap on the underside of the furling drum and the strap that connects to the bow plate should not be there!

I'm guessing that the extra strap (the one with the push pin) has been used because either the jib stay is too short or the back stay is too tight.

We do not connect the back stay until we have secured the furler drum strap to the bow plate (with cotter pin & ring)

Paul

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 19:40:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oregonworld
 Obviously, no brainer is subjective as a well seasoned sailor and boat builder who built several dozen Swan 50's and other members of this forum are using a QR Pin...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm back at my computer now so I can take a little more time to be more thorough and thoughtful. I often state things more bluntly when typing on my phone, because I need to keep it short.

I realize that this may not have been a no-brainer before, but it should definitely be now. Your mast fell down. That's not supposed to happen. Something really bad went wrong. There are huge stresses and vibrations at the forestay, and using a quick pin is asking for trouble. I genuinely fear that it will happen again to you if you try the same thing again. Like a couple others said, it doesn't matter how many people are doing it, it's bad practice. And you have a different boat than they do anyway, so their experience may not be relevant to you.

Sorry I have to be so blunt, but this is critically important stuff. You or a passenger could die next time. If the mast doesn't hit somebody, the spreader might. Please consider this event to be a key learning opportunity and make the needed change.
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oregonworld
 ...One of the things that may have happened as I diagnose this near catastrophe, is that there is a bimini mounted on the bat and it was folded, covered and secured to the back stay.

How do you stow the bimini when you are sailing and don't want it up?...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
When stored, my bimini is bunched up on both sides of the split backstay just as you describe, and is held there by a boot that goes over the canvas and around the backstays. If I don't want the bimini up (as is the case virtually all the time when doing late afternoon or evening sails), it stays right there. It has never caused a problem, and I seriously doubt it caused your collapse. But if you're nervous about it, then change it. Maybe your configuration is different in some way that I can't understand.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa

Here's my take on this setup

The gap between the strap on the underside of the furling drum and the strap that connects to the bow plate should not be there!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I have a mild disagreement with the comment in the bottom right corner of your pic: "When correctly tensioned, there is not normally a gap here."

The gap between the T-bolt and the anti-rotation strap is not affected by tension. It is affected by the number of washers that you put between the toggle and the metal drum cover. You can see that there are two in that pic, but many installations need more than two. If you have too few washers, then the anti-rotation strap bumps the end of the chainplate before the holes can align to insert the clevis pin. I suspect that this happens very frequently on the C250. This exact thing happened to me when I installed my ball bearing upgrade and naively decided to put in fewer washers. I had to disassemble the whole thing and add more washers (a hassle that is etched into my mind). In fact, I suspect that may be why the PO added the extra toggle - perhaps he discovered that the toggle was too short, and added this longer toggle because he didn't realize that more washers would solve the problem.

This is all covered in [url="http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF4&6%20manual%206_12.pdf"]CDI's instructions[/url]. Page 7 paragraph 9 describes the use of washers.

Note that if you remove the second non-standard toggle, you will have to reinstall the anti-rotation strap approx. 90 degrees from how it is now. This will be your opportunity to add more washers. While you have it all apart, you should adjust your turnbuckle length to compensate for the removed toggle and/or adjust mast rake to Catalina's spec. As CDI mentions on page 10, be sure to replace the cotter pins on the turnbuckle before you reassemble it, because without them the spinning furler will almost certainly cause another demasting.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/11/2013 03:49:36

britinusa
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 20:07:48

Rick, you are correct! I stand corrected.

Paul

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 06/10/2013 : 21:23:19

I don't care what some guy with a Swan 50 did, and probably don't believe it--a Swan 50 likely has rod rigging, and is not trailerable. A QR pin is intended for holding up a bimini, not a mast. If you and a few other risk-takers here haven't learned the lesson from your mast coming down,...... never mind.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 03:49:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">A QR pin is intended for holding up a bimini, not a mast. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
At least get your description correct. A ball release pin and a bimini pin are two different animals. The bimini pin is on the bottom. A quick release pin is on the top:

http://www.avibank.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.cat& cat_id=44

In my almost nine years of using the QRP I have never been able to pull the pin out without pushing the button. In this case, and the only other one, the failed item was the unnecessary eye jaw toggle.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 04:30:21

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 ...In this case, and the only other one, the failed item was the unnecessary eye jaw toggle.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The toggle bent. How does that lead to the QRP falling out? From what I've read here, I cannot conclude that the toggle was the root cause.

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Ape-X
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 04:43:33

If I were to fault a quick release pin, is that it is essentially a tube .vs. a pin which is solid. In addition, the interal mechanism can fail (stick open) The ball bearing retainer is also less substantial versus a cotter pin or circlip

I would much rather a solid pin and circlip or cotter pin.

JARED: Back to your original questions
- The pin and cotter you showed should be fine. A larger head may not be necessary, the strength comes from the grade and condition of the pin shaft.
- The 90° shackle you show others have pinted is not stock. Do you have adjustment on the forestay turnbuckle to eliminate this link? A system is as strong as it's weakest link: simplify the links and replace with those in good condition and sized for the hole.

was your forestay very loose? If loose that may allow slackening and tightening sufficient to cycle the pin into sliding out.

Edited by - Ape-X on 06/11/2013 04:50:16

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 04:56:35

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I cannot conclude that the toggle was the root cause.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
In both cases of this occurring, a very distorted (bent) toggle was shown. Everyone is blaming the QRP, what I see is failed eye jaw toggles.

In addition, A bimini pin is made to be pulled out.... without a manual release. A QRP must be manually released by pushing the button in. They operate in two completely different ways.

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Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 05:06:41

Let me put it another way. If the QRP "fell out" the eye jaw toggles would be intact and not bent. There would have been no force to distort them.

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TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 05:38:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Davy J
 Let me put it another way. If the QRP "fell out" the eye jaw toggles would be intact and not bent. There would have been no force to distort them.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I think it's clear from OP's description that the QRP "fell out":
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by oregonworld
 ...The QR pin slipped out and the mast came down...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
The toggle bent because of the stresses and vibration (pumping) that occurred before the pin worked its way out. If the pin just fell out immediately, there would have been no damage to the toggle. But the bending probably occurred before the pin fell out, and the stresses and pumping probably caused the pin to gradually work its way out.

I can tell you that the original toggle that comes with the furler drum is also subjected to significant aftward stresses that cause it to bend over time. The C250's stem chainplate points more vertically than the direction of the forestay, and as a result the clevis pin is not perpendicular to the forestay. (You can also see this in the picture of your C25 chainplate shown above.) So the clevis pin puts a significant torque on the toggle, and causes it to bend over time (although no such bending is apparent in your picture). I will re-inspect mine this evening to verify this, but I believe from past inspections that my toggle has bent over time to a point where it is no longer symmetrical. Every year when I raise the mast it is very clear which direction the toggle should be installed. I had assumed that this is normal wear and work hardening, but now I am concerned.

Could other C250 owners with the CDI FF4 please inspect their toggles and post here whether they have bent over time? If my bending is not normal, I would want to figure out what the problem is on my boat.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/11/2013 05:46:49

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 06:02:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It is affected by the number of washers that you put between the toggle and the metal drum cover. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
You may be on to something here.

I just went down to the boat, I have at least eight washers under the furling housing. I'm guessing, but the forestay may be able to pump up and down, inside the extrusion, without the washers.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 06:51:28

You may be onto something too:

It just may be parallax distortion in the photo, but I'm concerned that the holes for the clevis pin look slightly elongated. Also, the part looks too "shiny and nice" for my taste. It almost looks like it's made out of 316 stainless steel, which in my unprofessional opinion may be too soft and ductile for a high stress application such as this. It also appears to be a casting, instead of the original toggle, which I suspect is bent out of harder cold rolled stock, and probably one of the 400 stainless grades. I'm concerned that the PO may have bought a cheapo part from one of those Chinese websites. Looks nice and shiny and pretty, but not something I'd trust my life to.

It would be good if the OP could put some calipers on the hole and see if it's perfectly round. If it elongated under the stress, then the little ball on the QRP could have worked through the hole, leading it to fall out.

I still have concerns over the QRP, because the little balls at the end provide too little margin for sloppy tolerances. A cotter ring or cotter pin would not have slipped through this part.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/11/2013 07:34:06

Davy J
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Response Posted - 06/11/2013 : 07:22:30

Here is the other thread where the QRP was blamed. He claimed that the eye jaw toggle "opened up" or spread apart.

http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25715& SearchTerms=forestay

I questioned it then, and still do now, how could the toggle "bend" wider? Unless the holes in the toggle were elongated?

The real question is, what causes the toggle to bend in the first place?

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