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Help with new boat purchase

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ryank020
1st Mate

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56 Posts

Initially Posted - 06/29/2013 : 06:12:50

Hello all,

I recently made the decision to purchase a Catalina 25 for my next boat. Essentially what I was looking for was an older (before the model change in the mid 80's) that needed a little work and try to keep a total budget under $5,000. I'm still young (27) and fairly handy, so I that I could probably do any repair work required. I'm just looking to have a decent boat, nothing too fancy.

I was on Craigslist and found the boat included at the link on the bottom. From all of my research, this also seems like a steal. Is there anything in particular I should look for? Things I was going to keep an eye out for would be rotted bulkheads or any sign of water intrusion into the cabin (i.e. bent sanctions, cracked deck where the sanctions go into the deck), soft spots in the deck, and condition of the swing keel hardware. My biggest question/concern is about the inboard diesel. This is the first time I came across this in a Catalina 25 and really have no idea what to look for in regards to a good engine, maintenance, what type of engine they put in these, etc. They guy selling it did say the engine runs good. Anything I should keep an eye out for here?

Work I would plan on/wouldn't mind doing would be replacing swing keel hardware, new rigging, and bottom paint.

The boat is only 20 minutes from my place, so I figure it wouldn't hurt to at least take a look.

Thanks in advance for the input.

http://limaohio.craigslist.org/boa/3878861407.html

1984 Cat 25 FK/TR #4687

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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1511 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 06:55:13

I think if you could push your budget to about 7500.00 you could find a boat that didn't need much work at all.

But, 2500.00 and a trailer is a pretty good price.

Inboard diesel... excellent for ocean sailing, not so much for inland lakes. The nice thing about an outboard, is that, if it gives you enough problems, 2K gets you a brand new, bolt on, motor.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 07:38:58

Definitely take a look. I don't think the diesel is a 4 cyl., Hewebb can check in since he has one. Be sure to read his engine thread. Read "Self Appraising a C-25" in Tech Tips if you haven't. A bad diesel is an expensive and labor intensive proposition, but you could always hang an outboard on the stern and convert the engine space to storage. If the engine is good, noise and vibration are the only downsides.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 07:53:00

The inboard on a Catalina 25 should be a one cylinder. Something like a Yanmar 1GM or the same size Universal.

On a Catalina 25 I think that an outboard is a better way to go. The inboard takes up a lot of useful storage area. It'll be slower to sail unless you get an expensive feathering or folding prop. Outboards are a lot cheaper to replace.

When a boat gets much longer than 25' (27' is a normal cutoff) the outboard stops working well in rough conditions and an inboard is a necessity. The diesel inboard does also have other nice properties: the noise is lower pitched and less annoying and fuel economy is about 2x better than a gas outboard.

It's impossible to say if this boat is a good deal or not without seeing the boat's condition. If this is your first time shopping then I recommend reading Don Casey's "Inspecting the Aging Sailboat" before looking at any boats in person. It will give you an idea of the primary things that you are looking for in a survey. There are also some helpful documents on this site.

On an "inexpensive" boat like a Catalina 25 the main things to look for are:
* solid deck and hull
* good sails, and hopefully a good sail inventory
* good motor
* good rigging
* good interior cushions

To give you an idea of prices of these things:
* New (outboard) motor is about $2500, and a mount is about $300
* A pair of basic new sails is about $2000. A good sail inventory (genoa, working jib, main, asym or standard spinnaker) will run about $4000 new. You can find deals on used sails if you know what to look for. I prefer to buy them in person.
* Interior cushions are $2500 or more custom made, about $500 in materials if you sew them yourself and cut the foam yourself.
* Standing rigging is about $500-$600, not installed.
* Running rigging, including replacing blocks, easily gets over $1000.
* Fixing hull/deck issues (like rotten core) is very time consuming and I'd avoid bad hulls and decks.

A top notch well loved Catalina 25 (with new all of this stuff, recent bottom paint, etc) is about $10k. For $5k you should be able to find a boat with brand new some of this stuff. For $2500 or less you are unlikely to find any of this equipment new but should get either decent sails or a decent reliable motor. These are Seattle prices, things can vary regionally.

Also, there were some design changes around 1983 that are very nice to have. On the fixed keel boats the keel switched to lead. The fuel locker stopped venting into the cabin (a safety issue). Small changes were made to equipment locations to better balance the boat on the water.

If you are in a light wind area then get a tall mast if possible. The tall mast/fin keel Catalina 25 is a surprisingly good light air boat. The tall mast has a 3' taller main sail and 2' taller jib.

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 09:01:56

I recommend finding a copy of Don Casey's Inspecting the Aging Sailboat. Great reference tool.

Don't forget, a $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 whether you pay that up front or over the time it takes to do all the repairs.

Edited by - John Russell on 06/29/2013 09:05:31

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 09:11:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by John Russell
 I recommend finding a copy of Don Casey's Inspecting the Aging Sailboat. Great reference tool.

Don't forget, a $10,000 boat will cost $10,000 whether you pay that up front or over the time it takes to do all the repairs.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
To extend John's advice, if you buy a newer $10,000 boat without overpaying, you'll likely sell it for about $10,000. If you buy a $2000 project boat and discover $8000 worth of problems that need fixing, you'll likely sell it for about $2000.

Boats are always a poor investment. But some are even lousier investments. Be sure to consider total cost of ownership.

Edited by - on

ryank020
1st Mate

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56 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 09:37:15

Thanks everyone for all of the advice. I have the ability to have a $10,000 budget, but my second half says otherwise. Maybe showing her this thread will help to change her mind.

From what I am hearing, what you all have recommended was about what I was expecting. For me, I would not make a deal on anything with a bad deck/hull. I think anything else could be negotiable.

So if the diesel does go bad, it is acceptable to pull out the engine and hang an outboard off the back? Sounds better than a replacement.

I did also find the "Self Appraising a C-25" after I posted and provided some valuable insight. Thanks again.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 09:53:46

Where will your sailing grounds be, and what kind of use do you expect (cruising, daysailing, racing...)? A diesel really needs to be RUN--not just for a few minutes. For light duty motoring (from and to the dock), an outboard is a better bet. For cruising (most cruising sailors are forced to admit they motor 75%+ of the time), a diesel is fine, and on "big water" and seas, an inboard has advantages over an outboard (not including interior space and other factors mentioned). I wanted an outboard based on the KISS principle...

I'll add that you might be able to buy a 25' sailboat for $2,000 that you can at least partially resurrect for another $3,000, but you might not be able to sell it for anything.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 06/29/2013 09:55:38

ryank020
1st Mate

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56 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 10:03:46

I would be keeping the boat on some inland lakes around Cincinnati, so the motoring time would be to/from the dock. I'd like to tell myself that I may trailer it a few times to the Great Lakes, but I know that probably will not happen. Would probably have mixed use of the boat, but mostly daysailing with a few overnights throughout the year.

Maybe it sounds ridiculous too, but I really am not looking for a return on my investment here. Barring anything catastrophic happening, If I put $5K into the boat and got 7-10 years good use out of it, selling it for $2-3K isn't really going to upset me.

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 11:41:51

We purchase our boat several years ago, and put lots of time in repairing and bringin it back around. Check out the swap meet if you want a fin keel. Does not have a trailer, but the main systems are good to go with a little tinkering still available for you. We can keep you in the same price range you discussed.

1980 fin keel, sails just serviced.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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4304 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 12:25:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 The inboard on a Catalina 25 should be a one cylinder. Something like a Yanmar 1GM or the same size Universal....

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Looking at a picture of Hewebb's newly repaired engine it appears his is a 2 cylinder based on the number of injector lines going to the head.

https://www.catalina-capri-25s.net/cgi-local/MBRimg.cgi?%202095%202055

Edited by - GaryB on 06/29/2013 12:27:10

panhead1948
Captain

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345 Posts

Response Posted - 06/29/2013 : 18:25:10

they made 4 cylinder atomic 4's but I don;t think they put them in 1979 C25s. A Cat 27 would have a atomic 4

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 06/30/2013 : 08:59:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ryank020
 ...So if the diesel does go bad, it is acceptable to pull out the engine and hang an outboard off the back?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You'll have a hole in the bottom to fill in, and it'll take more than Marine Tex to do it. I'd keep looking for the right boat. There are lots out there, and the inventory changes all the time.

Edited by - on

ryank020
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 06/30/2013 : 10:32:46

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Ape-X
 We purchase our boat several years ago, and put lots of time in repairing and bringin it back around. Check out the swap meet if you want a fin keel. Does not have a trailer, but the main systems are good to go with a little tinkering still available for you. We can keep you in the same price range you discussed.

1980 fin keel, sails just serviced.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I had actually seen your ad on Sailing Texas when I was browsing. She is a nice looking boat and will keep her in mind

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/01/2013 : 04:14:48

@ryank020 I have additional hi-res pictures. I was doing additional cleaning this weekend.

e-mail me at im keene at msn dot com or call my cell four one nine 3four4 six26one
It is slipped at our marina in Muskegon. I would be glad to share rigging, sea trials, history, and thorough wal-through of the systems. Slip fees for the remaining season or delivery can be negotiated as well.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 03:48:31

I just had the diesel in my boat rebuilt. The engine is Universal m12-2. I decided to replace everything in the engine compartment while the engine was out. My engine ran really well for a long time, (40+ hours since I have owned the boat) but it had a vibration that seemed to be in excess for such a small engine. What we found; The motor mounts were rock hard, The cutlass bearing was worn out. Also, during rebuild they discovered a bent rod.

I love the inboard diesel and would buy another one. Just be aware they are more work and can get expensive. It sure is nice to turn the key push the button and go. You can motor for about 8 hours on a third of a tank of fuel. The alternator will charge the batteries in a very short time. Beware of cheap boats they are expensive to restore and seldom worth the money when finished.

Edited by - on

ryank020
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 09:18:29

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by hewebb
 I just had the diesel in my boat rebuilt. The engine is Universal m12-2. I decided to replace everything in the engine compartment while the engine was out. My engine ran really well for a long time, (40+ hours since I have owned the boat) but it had a vibration that seemed to be in excess for such a small engine. What we found; The motor mounts were rock hard, The cutlass bearing was worn out. Also, during rebuild they discovered a bent rod.

I love the inboard diesel and would buy another one. Just be aware they are more work and can get expensive. It sure is nice to turn the key push the button and go. You can motor for about 8 hours on a third of a tank of fuel. The alternator will charge the batteries in a very short time. Beware of cheap boats they are expensive to restore and seldom worth the money when finished.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for the input on the diesel. Not having to hassle with the outboard is a real draw for me on the diesel. Not to mention that the dock I will have the boat at has has some issues with outboard thefts (I'm overly paranoid sometimes). Do you happen to know if there is a way to run the diesel out of the water? I know for an outboard that it should be ran in water (I usually run current 4 hp in a bucket of water) but I'm not familiar with how a diesel works.

I'm just hoping that the price is cheap because he wants to get rid of the boat rather than there being any real issues.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 15:36:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ryank020
 I'm just hoping that the price is cheap because he wants to get rid of the boat rather than there being any real issues.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Heh, heh, heh..... I bet I know which he'll tell you.

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

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USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2013 : 04:46:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Thanks for the input on the diesel. Not having to hassle with the outboard is a real draw for me on the diesel. Not to mention that the dock I will have the boat at has has some issues with outboard thefts (I'm overly paranoid sometimes). Do you happen to know if there is a way to run the diesel out of the water? I know for an outboard that it should be ran in water (I usually run current 4 hp in a bucket of water) but I'm not familiar with how a diesel works.

I'm just hoping that the price is cheap because he wants to get rid of the boat rather than there being any real issues.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I started and ran the new engine yesterday for the first time. Boat is on the trailer at home.

You have to supply water to the fresh water pump. I took a five gallon bucket and placed it in the cockpit floor, ran a hose from the bucket to the inlet on the fresh water pump and a garden hose to the bucket to keep the bucket full. The little engine used a lot more water than I would have guessed. The exhaust water squirts out about 10 feet.

Edited by - on

OJ
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Response Posted - 07/03/2013 : 10:27:17

If they still produced the C25 today and I purchased one - I would still find plenty to tinker with.

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
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Response Posted - 07/05/2013 : 20:11:17

What is the keel configuration on that boat. By the looks of the trailer setup it looks like a Swing Keel. I have not heard of any swingers having an inboard. The Wing Keel and Fixed Keel sit higher on the trailer. I bought my Swing Keel w/ Trailer last year for $7500. Trailer alone go for $1500 and up. See if you can get some more photos when you go see it. It may be a good find or a huge project. You'll never know until you look at it and an hour of your time is worth the look.

Edited by - on

ryank020
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 07/06/2013 : 16:23:59

So I got to take a look at the boat today. Overall, for the price, I would say it was a relatively good deal. I'm sure if I wanted, it could float today but could use some work as noted from the original post. However, the mast did appear to be slightly bowed, near the spreaders. We laid it out against a strait line (one cut in the driveway) and it looked like it was off about an inch or so. However, if you looked at the sail track, it did not look twisted at all. Knowing that a new mast could be $4k to $5k I', thinking about just walking away. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for all of the help.

Edited by - on

GaryB
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Response Posted - 07/06/2013 : 17:28:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by ryank020
 So I got to take a look at the boat today. Overall, for the price, I would say it was a relatively good deal. I'm sure if I wanted, it could float today but could use some work as noted from the original post. However, the mast did appear to be slightly bowed, near the spreaders. We laid it out against a strait line (one cut in the driveway) and it looked like it was off about an inch or so. However, if you looked at the sail track, it did not look twisted at all. Knowing that a new mast could be $4k to $5k I' thinking about just walking away. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for all of the help.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Based solely on the pictures and what you said above I'd walk away. There are too many boats for sale under $5k to be messing with this boat. Especially with possible mast problems.

Boat just doesn't look like it's been taken care of to me.

Also. it doesn't appear to me the front of the boat is properly supported on the trailer which could cause swing keel damage.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 07/06/2013 : 20:57:06

How was the mast stored? It will sag if only supported at the ends. A few years like that and it could easily be set. The mast will easily bend more than that while rigging it, and rigging can just as easily remove the bend. It really needs to go in the water if you are thinking about. You also need to look at some other boats to compare.

Edited by - on

panhead1948
Captain

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Response Posted - 07/07/2013 : 07:30:36

Am I missing something here? I thought Cataline didn't put inboards in the 25 till around 86. The add says it is a 79. Also it says a 4 cylinder engine.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 07/07/2013 : 13:33:40

I'd strongly recommend you think about buying the boat that Ape-X is trying to sell. I have no affiliation except from knowing him on this forum. His asking price is at the top end of the price range you mentioned you wanted to stay in and his boat is ready to go.

If you buy the boat in the pictures above for $2,500 I'd almost guarantee you will spend more than $2,500 just getting it back in the water and then there will be more to do to get it the way you want.

Lay out the $5,100 or whatever you can negotiate for Ape-X's boat and go sailing. He's already done all the work.

Seriously look at the pictures you posted above and then open the link I attached below and look at the pictures of Ape-X's boat and read all the features and work he's done on his. There is no way you can get the '79 boat to look anything close to Ape-X's 1980 boat for $2,500 in repairs. Full batten main and a bottom job and you've spent close to $2,500 and there will always be the question in the back of your mind about the mast. You will have to spend even more to get it the way you want it.

Ape-X has already completely re-wired the boat, updated the plumbing, has a newer motor, and he's already done the bottom job for you. He's done hours and hours and hours of work that you would have to put in to get the '79 looking like his. All you would have to do to enjoy the fruit of Ape-X's labor is write a check (it's in the price range you mentioned you wanted to stay in) and go sailing.

Do you want to work on the boat or sail? I just know I'd rather sail than work on a boat.

http://sailingtexas.com/201301/scatalina25315.html

As the old Fram oil filter commercials used to say "Pay me now, or pay me later"!!! Your choice.

Edited by - GaryB on 07/07/2013 13:35:55

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