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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Swing keel lock

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Boyd
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/02/2013 : 14:07:04

Years ago, in response to a user asking about a swing keel lock for their 25, someone posted:
---
never lock the swing keel of a Catalina 25
It weighs 1500 pounds, it will not come up in a wave or broach. If your keel slams into your hull on a Catalina 25 you will already be sinking for another bigger reason.
It is a bad idea on 22s unless you are in deep water where you will never ever run aground.
---
I'm a newbie here, but isn't one of the purposes of a keel lock to to -prevent- "keel slams into your hull" in a broach or turtle? I understand those are controlled against and unlikely but... in the spirit of life preservers and positive bouyancy in our boats, why not lock your keel when in deep water? -Boyd

Edited by - on

Merrick
Navigator

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USA
192 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 14:41:53

Not sure how you could lock it if you wanted to. What's going to hold something that heavy if the boat is flipped over that far? I've pondered how we could cushion a small drop from riding over a log, etc. (as we've discussed before) Not found any real solution. Do you own a C25 swing keel? thinking of buying one?

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Boyd
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 15:21:42

I have immediate plans to buy one... currently my checkbook doesn't seem to understand the plan ;) in my younger days (~30 years ago) the family had a clipper marine 27 with swing keel.
When the keel is fully down, it's almost 90 degree's to the boat, no (honest question, scanning google results I see drawings and pictures but only in retracted position)? If so, the -initial- force to start it back into the trunk would be nothing like the full weight of the keel. Either way, the drawings of the replacement pivot kits don't look massive by any means so I had assumed a bolt to hold the keel extended would be similar.

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pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 15:51:42

Do not lock a C25 swing keel down. C22 used to have a lock and everyone just bent the pins. On a grounding the leverage of the keel depth will rip out anything you invent.

Edited by - pastmember on 07/02/2013 15:52:41

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 15:52:00

I suspect the bolt would also have to be below the waterline, which creates a little engineering challenge. The weight of the keel isn't the issue there--it's the weight of the boat, which the keel would have to stop if it hits something, and the bolt would take the full impact force on a 4' lever, which would probably do some damage (below the waterline). I suppose that could suggest making it a shearable pin, scaled up from what has been used on some kick-up rudders...

I haven't heard of a C-25 with any keel turtling--they can be knocked down but will either right or sink. (...likely the latter if she broaches to port and the sail locker is unlatched). In big ocean breakers the boat could be rolled, but not being a "blue water" design, the result would likely be sinking, regardless of the keel.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/02/2013 15:53:05

Boyd
Deckhand

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2 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 16:19:06

Hmm, the C-25 does not have positive bouyancy built in?

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 19:35:16

It does not. A boat has to be pretty light weight (like a Macgregor 26, which is one ton lighter) or gives up a lot of interior space to have positive floatation.

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 07/02/2013 : 20:51:08

I had a CM-21 for a long time, fast and responsive. The CM line was one of W. B. Crealock's early commercial design contracts, and I've never seen a Crealock that I didn't love. The 21 also had a lock pin, but it did tend to get bent and difficult to remove when one ran aground. The CM's pin was also above the waterline, not so with the C-25. A half inch pin or bolt would be more than adequately shear strength, but you also need a structure designed in to distribute the load. The CM-21 had an aluminum plate extending from the pivot pin to the lock pin that was laminated into the keel trunk

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John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2013 : 05:28:03

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Boyd
 Hmm, the C-25 does not have positive bouyancy built in?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Nope.

Some have written about keeping tension on the keel winch to prevent the keel from coming down too hard against the keel trunk if it should be suddenly forced up by something submerged.

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Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5500 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2013 : 05:52:13

Seems like a pretty compromised design. Nice that it allows access to shallow water and easier trailering, but I'd never rest easy with a swinger.
I've seen some boat designs with a weighted keel stub plus a few hundred pounds of swing keel but to rely on a 1500# "loose cannon" in knockdown situations seems like a nightmare.
Any Forum lore or old reports of anybody losing a swing keel, or fixed keel?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9089 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2013 : 06:28:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 Seems like a pretty compromised design. Nice that it allows access to shallow water and easier trailering, but I'd never rest easy with a swinger.
I've seen some boat designs with a weighted keel stub plus a few hundred pounds of swing keel but to rely on a 1500# "loose cannon" in knockdown situations seems like a nightmare.
Any Forum lore or old reports of anybody losing a swing keel, or fixed keel?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I've followed these forums since they were part of trailersailor.com, a while before I bought Passage. I recall no reports of the loss of any keel--swing, fin or wing--so their designs would seem to be adquately robust in that regard. Swingers have had cable failures that have caused damage, as we know. And even though there's a small fraction of the 6000+ boats represented here, I think we would have heard through news stories and other forums if a keel fell off a 25' Catalina, just as we've heard of a few sinkings (like one in Colorado, where something like 14 drunk people were aboard on a late-night joyride, causing a capsize and sinking).

BTW, the Clipper Marine 21's dry weight is all of 1650#, with 480# in the swing keel. So everything is at a very different scale from a C-25.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/03/2013 06:32:45

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 07/03/2013 : 19:26:08

You want your keel to be able to swing backward if you run aground. Anything else and you'll have hull or hardware damage due to the forces at play as others have said.

If you're out in conditions you should not be in and you're immediate concern is capsizing, you can as a last resort crank the keel all the way up to make it in a fixed position. The boat will be more tender, but you'll still have your ballast and this will prevent it from crashing into the hull if inverted.

On our inland lake, it would be nearly impossible to capsize the boat. Nearly 50% of the boats weight is in the swing keel. It would take big waves that we just don't have to cause a capsize. Even if the boat was overloaded with 30 guests and heeled well over in the wind, the guests would fall off when the boat heeled toward a capsize and then right itself.

This lake was once mountains, and so there are numerous old trees or something sticking up from the bottom such that I have been regularly hung up despite 10' of depth. A variable depth keel is invaluable. It also makes gunkhng possible.

I will never trailer my boat, but on my lake I would never want a fixed keel. If I strike it rich tomorrow, the only boat I would upgrade to on my lake is a Southerly, because they also have keels that swing back and up, albeit with much stouter blue water class hardware and a hydraulic ram for lifting.

The swing keel on the C25 is also a nice short deep foil, which makes the boat tack quicker and point better than wing keels.

Edited by - on

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