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Wanting to join Catalina family. Quick Questions

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AlexW
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Initially Posted - 07/27/2013 : 11:53:07

Hi all,

Brand new to the forum. My buddy and I are looking at picking up a trailerable 1977 C-25 soon. There aren't that many sailboats on the market in Alaska, so it's hard to be super picky.

Overall the boat seems solid. The standing rigging is brand new. There was standing water in the boat at some point, and all the cushions are gone.

Aside from a need for a fair amount of elbow grease, she seems solid overall.

The only part that bothers me is this crack under the boat dinette. It's a straight enough looking set of lines I thought it was a repair, but after looking closer it looks like they may be cracks?

Thoughts? Think it's something serious?

I appreciate the input!

http://imgur.com/3euE9D0 Apparent water line
http://imgur.com/jOcaHmr Crack
http://imgur.com/GBdPuuk Crack

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 12:48:08

That surely looks like somebody sawed a section out of the cabin sole (floor) to get at something... I'm thinking what looks like a random crack is some of the material (expoxy?) they used to seal the section back in place. If any of that is true, the structural integrity of the sole is problematic.

By "trailerable", do you mean a swing keel (a 1500# hunk of cast iron on a pivot point, with a winch and a cable to pull it up)? If so, use our Search function (above right) looking for "swing keel crack" (all words) in the C-25 forum, Entire message. You'll get an eyefull, including things to look for. The issues there are mostly about cracks in the hull, not the cabin sole, caused by the keel. That pictorial evidence of surgery might relate to the issues discussed many times here.

Welcome! We hope it works out, but we've also been known to counsel "Run, don't walk, away!"

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/27/2013 12:53:42

AlexW
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 13:40:28

Thanks for the quick response! I'll pour through the forum search results for those issues.

She's currently sitting on her trailer. The keel has a new bolt, and the winch to raise and lower it has been rebuilt.

Here are a couple exterior photos if they're helpful in the meantime.

http://imgur.com/fVuhfO1
http://imgur.com/zBfd47k

Thanks again!

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 13:54:18

Looks like no bottom paint, therefore a fresh water boat...(?) That's a plus with the swing keel. Nonetheless, cable replacement is routine maintenance--I'll let others speak to the frequency for fresh and/or salt water. A third-party vendor (not Catalina Yachts) named [url="http://catalinadirect.com/"]Catalina Direct[/url] offers kits for the job (and many other parts and upgrades), and knows our boats well. If you get the boat, they'll probably become some of your best friends!

Any explanation for the waterline inside?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/27/2013 13:55:36

AlexW
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 14:36:42

It's been mixed between local freshwater lakes and weekend outings in salt water. There's some chalky paint on there, but it's chipping off. No explanation for the water line. I'm seeing it everywhere though now that I'm looking back through my photos. Could it have been rainwater that would be a few inches of standing water for awhile?

I'll check the Catalina direct site out, thanks.

This is a photo I shot with my phone looking underneath where the repair cracks are. It doesn't mean much to me, but may tell you a story I can't see.

http://i.imgur.com/vUAKIVH.jpg

Edited by - AlexW on 07/27/2013 14:39:30

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 16:53:22

I see a piece of 2x6 wet wood!

Hate to say, but looks like a job to fix that. Might well be worth the effort, but a lot of work.

Paul

Edited by - on

AlexW
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 17:23:30

She's been on her trailer all season so far. Are you saying for structural purposes the wood would have to be replaced? I'm guessing that would mean opening up the fiber glass?

If it's old water marks from whenever there was standing water, could it be ok to safely sail now?

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 18:00:50

The last picture of the piece of wood (with the screw next to it) is puzzling - doesn't look original to he boat. The stringers are glassed in.

There are a lot of factors to consider - your goals for the boat, your skill set with boat repair, purchase price, your budget, spare time to do the work, a heated indoor space to work on it during the winter months.

Another factor in determining purchase price would include condition of sail inventory. What about the outboard motor? Are you going to take it on a test sail before purchasing?

I would step on every square inch of the deck checking for soft spots or delamination.

Edited by - OJ on 07/27/2013 18:13:23

AlexW
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 18:13:45

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by OJ
 The last picture of the piece of wood (with the screw next to it) is puzzling - doesn't look original to he boat.

There are a lot of factors to consider - your goals for the boat, your skill set with boat repair, purchase price, your budget, spare time to do the work, a heated indoor space to work on it during the winter months.

Another factor in determining purchase price would include condition of sail inventory. What about the outboard motor? Are you going to take it on a test sail before purchasing?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

That 2x6 is heading bow to stern if that makes a difference.

The goal is just a weekender vessel in mostly protected waters. Sail during the day, camp on board at night. We're both relatively handy, but also busy professionals with a short sailing season.

He's selling the outboard separate. It's a brand new 4 stroke 15hp, so I was thinking of picking up a used 9.9HP two stroke (or whatever) instead.

Sales looked ok. I haven't done anything beyond a rudimentary once-over pulling them out of the bag.

Price is around $4500. Unfortunately at any given time there aren't more than a couple sailboats for sale that fit my criteria.

I'm thinking a test sail would make a whole lot of sense.

Edited by - on

OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4382 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 18:22:53

The stringers are glassed in to prevent rot. Is the wood in the photo acting as a stringer?

I'm envious of your location - have to be some breathtaking places to sail!

I think $4,500 would be a lot in the lower 48, but you are a captive audience.

Edited by - OJ on 07/27/2013 18:24:47

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 20:30:44

Is that 2x6 by chance supporting the sole where the piece was cut out? That would make sense--something has to. The inner liner that makes up the sole and the "furniture" is mostly suspended, so cutting a section out weakens it and would leave that section, when replaced, unsupported.

$4500 would be way too much, especially without the outboard and cushions, in the lower 48, but what do we know about AK? I'd still like to know why that cabin sole is butchered--what went on under there... The replacement cost on cushions in the lower 48 is $2K+. An outboard is $2K+. (The extra-long (25") shaft is hard to find on the used market, but important on a 25' sailboat.) A '77 "swinger" down here, with serviceable outboard, cushions, and trailer, might go for $4K if it was in reasonably "nice" condition. That one is not "nice"--it's highly dubious. And the outboard and cushions are not included.

The good news is if that was rain water that filled her up to the "waterline" inside (which is quite plausible), that shows she's water-tight, for now. But where did the rainwater come from? If just the companionway, then there are ways to reduce that problem--like a cover over it. If it comes from leaks in deck hardware, chainplates, windows, etc., then some work is called for (and some plywood deck core might be rotten). But that was a lot of water to be seeping in under deck hardware--I'd tend to suspect an uncovered companionway and maybe leaky cockpit scuppers.

That's the end of my speculation and guesswork for today...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/27/2013 20:37:21

AlexW
Deckhand

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USA
6 Posts

Response Posted - 07/27/2013 : 21:14:39

That 2x6 would make sense being what's supporting that repair. I took the photo through that 4"(or so) hole you can see in this photo: http://imgur.com/jOcaHmr

I agree the price is high, but it is a pretty captive audience unless I ship or sail something up. http://anchorage.craigslist.org/search/?areaID=51&subAreaID=&query=sailboat&catAbb=sss

Is an extra long shaft necessary for relatively protected waters?

The current owner bought it and then started a family so he allegedly doesn't have a real knowledgable amount of information on its past.

I did check it out right after it rained and the boat wasn't buttoned down and there was a little rain water inside. I didn't see any water damage higher up, so it doesn't appear anything is leaking from the windows or chainplates. This owner did re-bed most everything top side.

The gel coat has some cracks. Most of them are small with the exception of this on top: http://i.imgur.com/7eXo6nu.jpg Overall nothing felt spongy top deck though.

could it have had the keel drop hard at some point and need to be repaired from the inside?

Thanks for all the help!

Edited by - on

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2013 : 06:54:16

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AlexW
 

Is an extra long shaft necessary for relatively protected waters? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yep.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AlexW
 
...could it have had the keel drop hard at some point and need to be repaired from the inside?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Yep, but it could have been a hundred other things as well.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2013 : 08:25:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AlexW
 ...could it have had the keel drop hard at some point and need to be repaired from the inside?<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">That's precisely where I was going with the original reaction to the photos of the (apparent) cut-out. The round thing is an "inspection plate" that was also added, probably as part of the same work--maybe to allow completion of putting the sole back together.

Read those historical threads on keel-drops and what damage to look for, both inside (aft edge of the keel trunk where the top rotates back) and outside (bottom forward of the keel trunk). It may have happened and it may have been satisfactorily repaired, or it may be dubious. That kind of damage has been caused by the keel riding up over a submerged object and then falling--not just by a broken cable.

The extra-long shaft is not critical... a "long" (20") is minimal... in boat wakes or significant chop, the long shaft will lift the prop now and then, making noise, sucking air, and not helping the engine.

All in all, from what we can see here, that boat is a risky proposition. How long has it been on the market? Are you willing to risk never being able to sell it yourself (other than parting it out or giving it away)? Any outboard you buy will have its own value, just as this seller's does. (He's probably selling it separately because of what I'm getting at.) Other than that, this boat may be worth a negative number--the cost of disposing of a big hunk of cast iron and a bigger piece of plastic. The C-25 is fundamentally a tough little boat, but at some point........

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2013 : 08:41:38

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AlexW
 ...The gel coat has some cracks. Most of them are small with the exception of this on top: http://i.imgur.com/7eXo6nu.jpg...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't recognize that picture. Are those two mats on either side some little track? It does look suspiciously like some coring gave way under an area where something put pressure on the surface. It looks like it could be the cockpit sole at the transom, except for the panel with the screws, and the track... Where exactly is it?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 07/28/2013 08:50:08

John Russell
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3444 Posts

Response Posted - 07/28/2013 : 15:05:37

The most common recommendation on this site for someone looking to buy a boat is to get a professional marine survey. It would cost around $400 in the Midwest and I know everything costs more in Alaska (Lived there a while) but, that might be the right move for you. Dave's right, and he usually is, this might be one of those boats that the owner is just trying to unload.

If you were in the lower 48, it might be possible to part it out cost-effectively but, with shipping from AK, that probably won't be an option for you if you end up with a parts boat.

Edited by - on

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2013 : 20:52:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by AlexW
 ...The gel coat has some cracks. Most of them are small with the exception of this on top: http://i.imgur.com/7eXo6nu.jpg...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I don't recognize that picture. Are those two mats on either side some little track? It does look suspiciously like some coring gave way under an area where something put pressure on the surface. It looks like it could be the cockpit sole at the transom, except for the panel with the screws, and the track... Where exactly is it?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Looks like the forward hatch over the vberth. Don't know what that metal bar is for.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9076 Posts

Response Posted - 07/29/2013 : 21:26:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by sethp001
 Looks like the forward hatch over the vberth. Don't know what that metal bar is for.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Of course! Now I'm oriented... That pattern of cracks suggests to me that the fiberglass is damaged, as if from two impacts. There's plywood core under there, but in that slope below the hatch, there could be a void between the glass and the core. That track, however, is odd--not original equipment.

Edited by - on

capted
1st Mate

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39 Posts

Response Posted - 07/30/2013 : 17:29:48

I would second the suggestion to get a pro to inspect the boat. The cutout in the floor is just at the area where you need access to repair swing keel damage. I've been there. 20 years ago the keel fell and punched through the back of the forward dinette seat, and damaged the keel trunk that runs back from there. It also damaged the fiberglass which holds the four bolts supporting the front of this 1600 lb iron keel. Needless to say, you want a repair done right! You should also inspect inside the front dinette seat for evidence of damage or repair.
My fiberglass guy cut away part of the dinette seat and the floor, repaired the underlying fiberglass, then rebuilt the seat and floor. You can hardly tell he was in there, and his work has survived another keel strike recently. With the age of the boat today, the repair I had done 20 years ago would probably total the boat today.
Given the poor workmanship we've seen, you must get a competent evaluation of the fiberglass work and any remaining work needed to have a safe boat. You may find the boat is essentially worth zero as-is. Maybe you'll be lucky and you'll find someone opened and inspected without finding any damage.
For reference, last year the fitting which connects the keel cable to the keel failed with the keel up. I had the boat hauled that day. The yard blocked up the boat and took the keel off, finding one bolt had been stripped. I then had them clean and inspect all the fiberglass, finding one minor crack in the trunk(maybe old), but no damage to the dinette area. I had them repair the fiberglass, replace the bolts, winch, cable and all miscellaneous hardware. Total cost was about $3K. Note that this didn't include any significant fiberglass work.
Ed

Edited by - capted on 07/30/2013 17:37:36

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