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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Survey in Southern CA - Keel Bolts shot!

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JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/05/2003 : 18:49:12

Hi, the 1977 Catalina 25 FK passed the haulout and survey today with exceptional marks, EXCEPT ALL the keel bolts are rusted away to nubs. The surveyor hit them with a small hammer and they fell apart to dust. The nuts are gone entirely and the bolts themselves look totally rusted, about 3 inches long, and the diameter of #2 pencils - they are way too small to be re-threaded to take smaller nuts.

Everything else was great and I took lots of digital photos, I'll learn how to post them. The epoxy bottom job done 2 years ago was primo and not a single blister or crack. The new balanced rudder is in perfect condition as is the part of the motor mount that I could not see from the deck.

As to the keel bolts, I was told that the keel is iron (not lead) and that the bolts can be "sistered". A special drill press machine will be used to drill new holes alongside the old bolts, the new holes will be threaded, and new 1/2" stainless bolts will be screwed in. It seems that there is room for 4 to 5 new 1/2" bolts alongside the old. These should be able to be inserted into about 2 1/2 to 3 inches of iron.

The job can be done in the water and I got an estimate of around $900 to do it from a professional keel repairman. My offer is that the current owner must do the repair and then I will inspect and if it's good, I will let my (full price) offer stand.

What do you think of this repair and is there any special instructions for preventing galvinic corrosion in the keel or on the new bolts?

One other thing, the mast still has the aluminum spreaders, but they looked fine. Bottom paint could be touched up, that's the only defects.

-JimB

Edited by - on

10timesSaltier
1st Mate

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80 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2003 : 19:19:31

JimB,

My keel bolts are rusty too, but nothing like what you've seen. However, I was told that drilling new holes in an iron keel (as opposed to lead) produces so much heat that it can't be done while the keel is still on the boat.

Let us know how it goes.

Brian.
Great Salt Lake (10-times saltier than the ocean)
"SAFARI", C25 TR-FK #2275

Edited by - on

pwhallon
Admiral

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USA
694 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2003 : 20:12:02

Hi,

I had a keel issue, the Catalina smile, on ESSAYONS that required the re-tightening of the keel nuts.

The repair was done with the boat on the hard so the keel could be tightened better because the bolts were not carrying the load.

The keel was better compressed onto the stub.

Something like that.

Good luck,

Paul

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2003 : 22:23:53

Jim: Aluminum spreaders are not the issue--it's the spreader brackets on the mast. The old ones are aluminum, prone to cracking, and the newer ones are stainless. The spreaders are aluminum tubing either way.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/05/2003 22:24:36

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2003 : 23:14:37

They didn't use stainless bolts originally? What a shame for a lousy $10 worth of materials..

If the professional has done this before and you have confidence in his abiilities... I guess why not?

If I was doing it on the hard, I'd have the keel removed , the original locations drilled out and tapped them for 3/4".

To make this work, you'd need some custom keel studs made up... 3/4" where they screw into the keel, 1/2" where they go into the boat. That would hold her I reckon.

Rest of the boat looks lovely.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/05/2003 : 23:21:44

<b>"One other thing, the mast still has the aluminum spreaders, but they looked fine."</b>

This are the spreader brackets that Dave is referencing.

<img src="http://www.catalinadirect.com/images/product%20images/Spreaded%20Bkt%20Prts%20C-27.JPG" border=0>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 10:52:55

Make sure they use 316 stainless.

see link http://www.assda.asn.au/marineapps.html

Edited by - on

RichardG
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 11:45:37

Jim:

Although I have no personal experience on the subject, I've read that stainless steel bolts (any type) are inferior in this application -- sister keel bolts into cast iron with no/very little oxygen. Mild steel bolts with matching washers and nuts are better.

It might be wise to get a quote on the job from another yard, to get a confirming second opinion on this issue (as well as being able to do it while still in the water).

Good luck on this!

I'm right around the corner from you, at Holiday Harbor Wilmington.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 13:28:11

I'll know more tonight. The keel repairman is inspecting the boat this afternoon. I, too, think the mild steel bolts would be better in order to avoid mixing dissimilar metals. I have heard to coat the bolts with anhydrous lanolin before screwing them in.

If it has to be hauled, that is OK as I will paint the bottom while the man does the drilling.

The seller is paying for this repair. If I don't like the result I can walk. However, as you can see, everything else is good so I am hoping the repair goes well.

I will try to get some pictures of the process. But the boat is in Long Beach and I am in San Diego. I will post an update tonight when I know more.

Edited by - on

jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 02/06/2003 : 22:23:07

Consider Xylan coated studs, bolts and nuts when reviewing the keel corrosion issue. Also, regarding type 316 SS, there are many tables available on the web that show the Galvanic Series In Sea Water. Most show two listings for type 316 with very different reactivity as compared to iron and steel. Check the graphical link near the bottom for an analytical comparison.

Noble
(least active)
18-8-3 Stainless steel, type 316 (passive)
18-8 Stainless steel, type 304 (passive)
13 percent chromium stainless steel, type 410 (passive)
M-Bronze
G-Bronze
Silicon bronze
Red brass
Aluminum bronze
Admiralty brass
Yellow brass
Naval brass
Manganese bronze
Lead
18-8-3 Stainless steel, type 316 (active)
18-8 Stainless steel, type 304 (active)
13 percent chromium stainless steel, type 410 (active)
Cast iron
Mild steel
Aluminum 6053
Galvanized steel
Zinc
Anodic
(most active)

Text
http://corrosion.ksc.nasa.gov/html/galcorr.htm

Graphic
http://www.corrosionsource.com/handbook/galv_series.htm

John

Edited by - on

lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2003 : 09:04:08

If the tops of the keel bolts were completely rusted out, what was holding the keel onto the hull? It sounds like it's a darn good thing that Jim didn't make his delivery cruise to bring the boat from Long Beach to San Diego! That would ruin your day, to be out on the ocean with a full spread of sail up, and have the ballast just fall off, not to mention the flooding from the six or eight suddenly exposed bolt holes. I understand that at some point, the factory switched from cast iron to a fiberglass keel with lead molded in to the lower part. What model year did that happen, anyone know?

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

djones
1st Mate

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USA
56 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2003 : 09:57:02

My '83 SR/FK has the molded fiberglass keel with SS hardware.

-Don Jones "Swept Away" C25 SR/FK (Out of water for bottom job.)

Edited by - on

JimB517
Past Commodore

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USA
3285 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2003 : 12:10:59

We are having a keel specialist put 5 or 6 3/4" bolts into the keel next week for $900. It will be done in the water, using a special mobile drill press. The machine needs 6 feet of headroom - no problem with the pop-top up!

I thought the boat was a 77, I found out from the survey it's actually a 78.

Not encapsulated, the keel is partly glassed in. This glass had become a little delaminated, which is why the CO did the epoxy job 2 years ago (still looks beautiful today). The keel man told us that the old bolts (now studs) and fiberglass would hold the keel for a long time to come, but that the sister bolts would make it strong as new again.

By the way, if it was a LEAD keel, this repair could not be contemplated, lead will not hold new threads. It would have to be removed and the old bolts melted out.

I will post some photographs showing how the project comes out. Our family SHOULD be a Catalina 25 owner in a week. No other defects were found on the survey (hows that for a 25 year old boat!)

I am seriously considering covering the entire area with epoxy. Everytime you pull the knotmeter out of it's through-hull the entire keel well gets considerable salt water. Otherwise the boat is dry as a bone.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/07/2003 : 17:16:58

Jim: If your specialist installs stainless bolts, you don't need to cover them up. If he installs mild steel bolts and nuts and you epoxy them in, you won't be able to tighten them later. Like Richard, I have heard that a cast iron keel shouldn't have stainless bolts--the metals are too different, and the stainless can develop crevice corrosion. I'd check with your specialist on this issue and on sealing the job in epoxy. There may be a better way to protect mild steel bolts and nuts--like silicone sealer or something.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/08/2003 : 10:06:54

Hmmm... pondering stainless/cast iron issues.. IMHO stuff follows.

Compared to the damage that was found with the regular steel bolts, I'd think a wee bit of crevice corrosion wouldn't be much of an issue, especially if you change the bolts every 20 years or so. ;>)

A little bit of thread lubricant would likely reduce the problem even further.

After all, (and for obvious reasons) they use a stainless bolt on the swing keel cable attachment... into cast iron.

-- CB

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

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