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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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OT - Catalina 22

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TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Initially Posted - 08/15/2013 : 12:34:08

I know this is a C25 site, not a C22 site, but many among you either once owned, or now own a C22, and this is much more active site. I hope you will forgive me for asking for advice...

I have a '78 C22 and ran into something I haven't run into before, in the starboard side, near the keel cable volcano, my bilge floor was soft and mushy. I figured it was water so I drilled a couple holes and yup, there was water under there. This seemes to be area the only area (and the corresponding area on the port side) that seems to have a wooden core...did Catalina do this for a structural reason? Or is it no problem if I just remove all of this core and layer of glass? This doesn't appear to be part of the hull (hull is fine), almost like a floor for the bilge...is my thinking wrong?

No pictures yet, but will take some later today when I get out of the office for a minute.

Appreciate any help or advice (will also understand if you have to remove the post because it's not a C25 issue)

Tom Curran
1981 Capri 25 Hull #101 "Dirty Debbie"
1988 Watkins 30
PAFB, FL

Edited by - TCurran on 08/15/2013 12:35:17

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2013 : 12:58:20

Tom,
I've got a '75 C-22. Does it look like a PO did any modifications around the volcano? did your boat have any blisters in the hull? I have a very slow leak on the starboard side where the hull turns upward to form the keel trunk, about 6-8 inches behind the volcano. Not sure what caused it, but I'm looking at some possibilities, including the settings of the two middle bunk supports (the end ones are fixed). I'm not aware of any wood core in the hull, but I could very well be mistaken. Have you called Catalina Yachts? They may be able to help you. If you do, we'd love to know what they say.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/15/2013 : 14:22:17

Dave, it's definitely is a factory job, or underwear gnomes did it...had to be done before the the cabin liner was installed. It's not part of the hull, and maybe my use of "core" was wrong, it just looks like they put something in there to make it a flat area for storage. No blisters, the hull is in pretty good shape.

Edited by - TCurran on 08/15/2013 14:23:55

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 03:13:19

Here's a couple of pics of the area:

Looking down in the area in question, the left side is where I cut the top layer of glass and wood is exposed, right side still has the layer of glass

Here's a closer view of the wood (yes, it's real wet)

And a shot of the side I haven't cut up yet (wood showing is for a battery box)

Edited by - TCurran on 08/16/2013 03:20:01

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 04:05:09

Tom, is it Balsa?

Paul

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 04:09:55

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by britinusa
 Tom, is it Balsa?

Paul
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Paul...I think so, but right now it's just a wet gooey mess, it's not a laminate so pretty sure it was balsa

Edited by - on

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 05:49:11

The right side looks factory, except for placement of the thru-hull. The original battery trays were wood, cemented to the hull with a glob or two of caulk. When mine gave out, I replaced it with a plastic battery tray and used 5200 to bond it to the hull. The drain hose and thru hull is definitely a replacement, not factory. I've still got the original hoses and gate valves. I'll have to double-check the placement of my thru-hull, but my recollection is that it is on top of the keel trunk, not beside it.
On the left side, looks like you've got a real mess. I think that after removing all of the wet wood and letting it dry thoroughly, I would be inclined to try to restore it to factory condition. I would call the factory and ask if the hull is wood core in that area. If not, put down a few layers of glass cloth.
It's not unusual for that area to get wet. If the PO did not keep a tarp over the companionway, rain water will collect there. If the boat has scuppers in the stern at cockpit floor level, that was done by a PO and should be checked for leaks. Also, you might want to re-bed the lower gudgeon. That's also a source of water intrusion, which will drain down to where your damage is. Your keel cable hose looks like it has been replaced recently.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/16/2013 05:51:03

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 06:12:16

The picture makes the wood look like particle board, not balsa, but it's hard to tell. That may have been intended to stiffen the keel trunk against lateral forces from the keel. I'd talk to Catalina about it.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 07:14:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 The right side looks factory, except for placement of the thru-hull. The original battery trays were wood, cemented to the hull with a glob or two of caulk. When mine gave out, I replaced it with a plastic battery tray and used 5200 to bond it to the hull. The drain hose and thru hull is definitely a replacement, not factory. I've still got the original hoses and gate valves. I'll have to double-check the placement of my thru-hull, but my recollection is that it is on top of the keel trunk, not beside it.
On the left side, looks like you've got a real mess. I think that after removing all of the wet wood and letting it dry thoroughly, I would be inclined to try to restore it to factory condition. I would call the factory and ask if the hull is wood core in that area. If not, put down a few layers of glass cloth.
It's not unusual for that area to get wet. If the PO did not keep a tarp over the companionway, rain water will collect there. If the boat has scuppers in the stern at cockpit floor level, that was done by a PO and should be checked for leaks. Also, you might want to re-bed the lower gudgeon. That's also a source of water intrusion, which will drain down to where your damage is. Your keel cable hose looks like it has been replaced recently.

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

DaveP, thanks. The thru-hull is new, I installed it. The PO capped off the original thru-hull and ran a line to the stern (uphill???) When I drilled the for the new thru-hull (from the bottom) i went through ~1/2 inch of solid glass (the hull), wood, and then that thin layer of glass. It's hard to see from the pictures, but under the wood is definetely solid hull. You can see how far the wood extends to outward (lower left-hand of the pic of the wood), after that it's just painted hull.

I also replaced the whole lifting and pivoting assemblies even the keel eyebolt...

Thanks for the leak tips...I have many to trace and seal, to include the hull/deck joint.

Will call Catalina today to find out if it's structural or not and let you know.

Edited by - TCurran on 08/16/2013 07:16:08

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 08:56:10

It's good that you worked on the keel lifting system. I replaced the keel cable, hose, and turning ball a few weeks ago for the very first time, even though the cable still looked okay. There was almost no wear on the turning ball (I've owned the boat since 1977), so you should not have to deal with that again for a very long time. Granted, the boat spent most of her life, until 7 years ago when we bought the C-25, in a fresh water wet slip, so we rarely had to raise the keel.
I checked the left side of my boat's hull by the keel trunk where you have your problem and it is firm and hard, thankfully. Good luck with the repairs.

I wonder if the PO might have somehow caused your problem when he capped off the thru-hull. Maybe he/she didn't seal it well and allowed water intrusion into the core. A crack in the keel trunk could also be a culprit. You might want have it thoroughly inspected.

Edited by - dmpilc on 08/16/2013 09:04:08

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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5902 Posts

Response Posted - 08/16/2013 : 09:46:59

The C25 hull is solid fiberglass, and not cored, and I believe my C22 was also solid fiberglass.

If you ask yourself, "Why would the PO bond a piece of wood to the hull," a logical explanation might be that the bottom of the hull was deformed, or oil-canned, by being stored on a trailer or jackstands without adequate support, and perhaps he bonded the wood to the hull to try to straighten it. I had an old Optimist Pram that had a deformed bottom, and I thought about doing the same to smooth the surface. The Pram's deformed bottom created tremendous turbulence.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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588 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 15:25:11

It took a while, but I just heard back from Catalina. Part of the delay was the boat's age and it having been constructed on the west coast, so the institutional knowledge wasn't readily available (plus the POC was out sick for a little bit).

Here is the money quote from the email:
"...Gerry said that wood there is only as a base for the battery strap bolts or screws. not structural." Not sure who Gerry is, I was dealing with Warren Pandy, but the response kind of confirms what I thought.

Overall they were very helpful and I appreciate them digging through their files for an answer. It is great having them a phone call away.

Edited by - on

dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 18:33:57

Gerry may not have understood the question. I think he is talking about the wood on the right side in your pictures (port side of the keel trunk). To my knowledge, battery boxes were not placed on the starboard side of the boat.

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TCurran
Admiral

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Response Posted - 09/19/2013 : 02:35:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dmpilc
 Gerry may not have understood the question. I think he is talking about the wood on the right side in your pictures (port side of the keel trunk). To my knowledge, battery boxes were not placed on the starboard side of the boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All depends how much Warren sent him....I sent Warren 5 emails with pics, descriptions, etc. I will probably "float" some thickened epoxy over the area to smooth the area out (can't get all of the wood up), replace some of its strength, and make it look a little better.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/22/2013 : 14:01:26

You might want to try some penetrating epoxy in the wood before you cover it up--something like Git-Rot, which is sorta like water until it hardens. It should help stop or prevent complete rot under there, and the wood fibers remain the strengthening component, like glass fibers.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 09/23/2013 : 11:46:10

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 You might want to try some penetrating epoxy in the wood before you cover it up--something like Git-Rot, which is sorta like water until it hardens. It should help stop or prevent complete rot under there, and the wood fibers remain the strengthening component, like glass fibers.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Already in the plan, but thanks for the suggestion, helps validates my plan of attack.

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