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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Recommendations for small racer?

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/18/2013 : 11:32:02

I know, I know; I just sold the C25, but I haven't given up my slip at the local reservoir, and I was thinking of getting something smaller for the Wednesday beer can races. Does anyone have any recommendations?

My criteria are:
1. Easy to singlehand
2. Easy to tow behind a V6 SUV
3. Competetive racer
4. At least a modest cabin that i could sleep in on the occasional weekend I don't go up to Lake Erie.
5. Not too expensive ($5k or less)

I was thinking of a Catalina 22, and that's certainly still on my shortlist, but something even smaller might be preferable if it's a decent racer.

Any recommendations are greatly appreciated!

Ben
Beneteau 361
Viking Kitty
Columbus, Ohio

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 12:37:21

Yeah, once you've been bitten, it's really hard to get small boat racing out of your system!

I'm looking for a Cal 25 at the moment. They were built in the late 50s and early 60s, and you can often buy one for very little. The price usually is dertermined mostly by the quality of the motor and the quality of the sails. They have been described as being somewhat similar to the J24. They are still very actively raced in 3-4 locations around the US. There's a big and very competitive one-design fleet in the Chesapeake Bay, another in Long Beach California, and I think there's one in the Detroit area, and possibly another one in the Great Lakes area. There might be others I don't know about. They still have an annual national regatta. Around here, they race with a crew of 4-5, and they race with spinnakers. Their racing sail inventory usually consists of a racing mainsail, a #1 and #2 jib, and a symmetrical spinnaker. Most use a 6 hp outboard motor, and they take it off and stow it below when they race. They are a well-behaved small boat, and as easy to singlehand as a C25. Their displacement is listed at 4,000 lbs. Here's a link to more info: http://sailboatdata.com/viewrecord.asp?class_id=446

Edited by - on

Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 12:53:57

Thanks Steve. I think we actually have one of those Cal 25s at our local club here. The owner raced it in the same fleet I was in, but he was never really competetive, but he wasn't real serious about racing either, I think. I'm looking for something a little smaller though, ideally not more than 22 feet in length.

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 14:36:29

I don't know how far east they made it, but the San Juan 21 I used to own sounds like a pretty good match for what you're looking for. I single handed it almost every time (I think I took it out less than 6 times with other people on it), relatively light weight, and designed to be competitive.

I sold mine for $2750 I think? With a trailer & 7.5 hp OB.

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OJ
Master Marine Consultant

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4382 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 17:10:41

Towing with a V6? Maybe a Capri 22 - locally?

Edited by - OJ on 09/18/2013 17:11:09

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 17:50:30

I second the San Juan 21. It is very responsive, there are a lot of them, and I think its well under 2000 lbs.

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dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 18:24:27

Primary question: What fleets are active on your pond or nearby? Fleet racing beats handicap racing any day of the week!
Catalina 22 fleets are numerous, reasonably priced, and make nice weekenders.

Edited by - on

TCurran
Admiral

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USA
588 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 18:27:55

I downsized my "racer" to a Catalina 22 SK. My first real sailboat was a 04 Capri 22 WK, I feel the SK Catalina is easier to launch and retrieve and has a bigger cabin, better suited for the occasional weekender, although the wife and I spent a few overnighters on the Capri. Not sailing the Capri recently it's hard for me to accurately judge the racing capabilities of the two...but I believe the Catalina has more "options" and upgrades available that make it a little more competitive but I'll let the real racers chime in.

There's an older couple that races with us that has a San Juan, they launch and retrieve it with a mini van and are more than competitive usually crossing the line near the front, so I will also second the San Juan recommendation.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 18:30:29

Competitive...... In PHRF, everything can be competitive, even if it struggles to finish before the after-race party does. The question might be, how easy would it be to beat the rating? The more a boat is raced, the lower its PHRF is likely to be, because the rating is based on how people are doing, which is affected by their skills and the boat preparation and equipment. The C-22's rating might be easier to beat than the San Juan 21's, because the latter is popular for racing, while the former is just plain hugely popular.

National average PHRF handicaps are:

Catalina 22: 270 (eminently beatable)
San Juan 21: 252
Capri 22: 207 (!)
Precision 21: 231
Tanzer 22: 243
O'Day 19: 237 (bigger boat than it sounds)
J-22: 177 (just for comparison)

The little Capri, with a fractional rig, sounds interesting...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/18/2013 18:55:20

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 18:55:20

Find a Holder 20; daggerboard keel so easy to launch. GrandSlam 6.9 is another daggerboard keel but heavier. Both race well. As for a C-22, I am much happier in a Starwind 223 than anything less than a wingkeel C-22 MK II.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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USA
1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 19:19:27

I'll second the Holder 20
But Capri 22 is obvious (make sure to get the tall rig, fin keel).
J/22 (you can sometimes find around your price point, but keep in mind the number of people racing a boat set the handicap - so if really good sailors sail them, the handicap gets harder for us mere mortals to sail to).

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 20:50:44

I didn't consider the Holder because you were interested in some accommodations... Are you thinking "camper" or "pup-tent"? The O'Day 19 is much bigger inside, although obviously slower outside (but not that slow).

Also, given that it appeals to racers, its PHRF rating will be more difficult to beat. But head-to-head, it'll scare some bigger boats, which can be fun. (Corrected time will be a little less fun.) One question might be whether you'd rather out-run somebody to the line or pick up trophy for a regatta or season series? Those can be different objectives.

But another factor I look for is <i>what's popular in your area?</i> That relates to purchase opportunities, some "one-design" fun, even in PHRF races, and a viable market to sell into when the time comes. If that turns out to be the C-22, do like several people in this group (for racing, no less)--go for it.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/18/2013 20:55:54

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5378 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 20:55:01

I like the San Juan - there's one in our harbor and the lines are very cool.

There's also a guy in my marina who's got a West Wight Potter 19 that he's anxious to sell.
He thought it would be a good boat for LI Sound, for overnighting and for long-ish day sails. He found that it's just a wee bit too small for his 6'3" frame and his two tall kids.
But for hanging out at the lake and sailing around solo or with one crew, it's probably perfect.
It's equipped with a furler headsail and only a few years old.
I expect to see him this week or next.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 09/18/2013 : 22:02:35

If you're looking just for something to race and not overnight on what about a Flying Scot? There are thousands of them around and fleets everywhere. [url="http://www.flyingscot.com/"]Flying Scot[/url]

This will be my next boat unless I decide to go with another Hobie Cat.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/18/2013 22:05:51

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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1032 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2013 : 03:30:07

Gary is right...
Plus, there is the Thistle, Lightning, Lido, and tons others.

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Ben
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1234 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2013 : 07:19:50

Thanks guys. The only fleet we have at our local reservoir is a Catalina 22 fleet. I've never done any fleet racing, so if it really is that much better than PHRF, then maybe that's the way to go. I have also been considering the San Juan, Precision, Holder and Starwind that folks have mentioned. I'll also check out the Capri, Tanzer and O'Day that were mentioned. I love the looks of West Wight Potters, but question how competetive they'd be, unless I'm thinking of the wrong boat.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2013 : 09:10:44

If there's a C-22 racing fleet nearby, then I'd go for it! It should be easy to both buy and sell the boat. My favorite part of one-design racing is that whoever crosses the finish line first WINS--period! And whoever beats whomever to the line, beats them! (Some people prefer handicaps so that nobody knows for sure on the racecourse.) OD at least partially removes the boat as a factor, except for things like dry-sailing, clean bottoms, new sails, racing sails, etc. Some fleets divide up between white/dark sails, spin/non-spin, etc... They do something like that at the C-22 Nationals.

Is the C-22 fast? In a separate C-22 fleet, it is... Everything's relative!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/19/2013 10:16:22

dmpilc
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 09/19/2013 : 11:14:45

I attended the C-22 Nationals this past June, in Ft. Walton Beach, FL. We sailed on the big bay behind Santa Rosa Island (between Ft. Walton Beach and Destin). We had an absolute blast. The C-22 is officially a non-spinnaker racing class, usually with both gold (more experienced) and silver fleets at National, regional and many sub-regional regattas.
However, at the Regional and National level, depending on the number of registrants, a series of spinnaker races may be held, racing for a separate trophy unrelated to the C-22 National Championship trophy. The spinnaker class is open to both gold and silver fleet boats. Region 3, which covers the southeastern states has, for about 3 years now, held a series of races called GRITS (Great Racing In The South). This involves 5 local regattas, each in a different lake/sailing club, finishing up in Nashville. All offer gold and silver fleets, subject to registrations, but Nashville also offered, last year, a cruising fleet for non-racers, who sail a distance course. It was very well received.
The GRITS locations are:
Dixie Sailing Club, Lake Martin, AL (near Auburn)
Privateer Yacht Club, Chickamauga Lake (in Hixon, TN, outside Chattanooga)
Rome Sailing Club, Weiss Lake, AL, (near Gadsden)
Lake Lanier Sailing Club, Lake Lanier, GA (near Atlanta)
Percy Priest Yacht Club, J. Percy Priest Lake, TN (Nashville, TN)
The last three are Catalina 22 only regattas.
The one at Privateer is called the Chattanooga Challenge Regatta, about 7-8 years old and became part of GRITS. I won silver fleet severals years ago, before GRITS, with my daughter crewing for me, a highlight of my racing life.
The one at Lake Lanier is a long standing regatta called the Gone With The Wind Regatta, which became part of GRITS, and is being held this weekend.
The one in Nashville is called the Music City Catalina Cup, established 2 years ago for GRITS, and will be held the second weekend in October.

The GRITS winner in each fleet is based on the best 3 out of 5, knowing that participants likely will not be able to make all 5 regattas. The winner of GRITS Silver Fleet is expected to move up to Gold Fleet.

If I'm not mistaken, the C-22 region covering Indiana and Ohio also holds a series of regional races. I've heard that there is an active C-22 fleet at Grand Lake-St. Mary's at a popular sailing club there.

Edited by - dmpilc on 09/19/2013 11:34:53

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