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How to do it "Tacktfully"

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Captmorgan
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Initially Posted - 09/24/2013 : 06:35:07

Question? Trying to improve skills and techique.

I noticed that with the C25 by tacks are wider that they were with the J24 I used to sail. I have a swing keel and know the decreased surface area decreases my pointng ability, however when I tack what is the best techniques or tricks to get right back on the beat.

I know many of you are not in my region show you can share your secrets :) you dont have to fear me coming up on you in a race. and Im not ready for racing yet!

Sometimes I feel like we tack too wide and were waiting for the wind and water to balance out.

sometimes even in pretty good wind I end up halfway between a beam reach and close haul and I have to work my way back up on the wind.

I noticed it happened more when my brother was helming but I didnt want to coach him since I wast sure the best way to handle it.

John

"The Gal-Way" 1985 SR/SK Barnegat Bay, NJ

Enjoy Sailing =) Be Safe

Happy Sailing - John

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 07:22:22

John, I skippered a J24 for most of a season and raced against them for years, and can say that my C25 TR/FK could almost (but not quite) point with them. In one particular race, a J24 with a skilled skipper and I were very close to each other on the windward leg, and both pointing for all we were worth, and I could equal his speed, but he pulled to windward of me excruciatingly slowly. His sails were laminated racing sails, and mine, at that time, were >20 year old dacron racing sails that were still very fast and competitive, but I believe my C25 might have been able to point with him if it had the luxury of new laminated racing sails. If you prep the C25 well and race it well, you'll be pleasantly surprised at what she can do.

The following is a copy of one of my recent posts that might help you make more efficient tacks:

A Windex is commonly used as an aid, to help you find the boat's "groove" and to keep it in the groove when sailing closehauled, but there are other ways you can find the groove without using a Windex. You can look, for example, at telltales on the sails, or woolies tied to the shrouds.

But, a Windex has another use which is commonly ignored. When you tack the boat, a Windex tells you when to stop the turn. If you turn too far, then the boat loses more speed, it loses ground to windward, the helmsman has to turn the boat a second time, to bring it up onto the wind, and, when you turn the boat too far, the sail loads up, and, in a strong wind, the jib tailer has to use the winch handle to grind the sail in to closehauled. All of that makes for a very inefficient tack.

When you tack the boat, if you'll glance at the Windex after the bow has crossed the eye of the wind, the Windex will tell you when to bring the tiller back to center and stop turning the boat. When the Windex feather is just inside the index, I stop the turn momentarily. At that point, the sails would be pinching, if they were trimmed. By pausing briefly at that point, you enable the jib tailer to take in almost all the slack in the jibsheet without having to use the winch handle. When that's done, then you can put the helm down just enough to load the sail and get it driving. If the helmsman and jib tailer have worked in coordination, the boat will come out of the tack with the sails trimmed slightly fuller than closehauled. That fullness will be just about right to help the boat accelerate out of the tack and up to speed. As the boat accelerates, the tailer should gradually trim in the jib to it's most efficient closehauled position. As the sail is trimmed in, the helmsman will feel it in the tiller, and he should adjust his steering accordingly.

If your tailer can bring the sheet in quickly enough, the helmsman might not have to pause the turn briefly, as I described, but the helmsman should coordinate the turning of the boat with the tailer, giving him as much time as he needs to get it done.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 08:04:37

John, since you've sailed a J-24, which also has a transom-hung rudder, these comments might not add anything for you... But a common mistake I see frequently is trying to turn too hard, too fast, by slamming the rudder hard over. The best racers I've known and watched ease into a turn so the boat starts to pivot as the rudder rudder angle increases, and they come out of the turn the same way--somewhat gradually. The first sign of going too hard is the sound of extreme turbulence on the rudder. That means (1) it's creating excess drag and (2) it's stalling--acting more like a brake than a rudder. Coming out of the turn gradually works with Steve's point about allowing the jib trimmer to set up as the main accelerates the boat on the new tack while you're still sailing a little lower--just for a moment.

When racing, there is, of course, always a compromise between shortest distance and best speed (called VMG), so a wide turn can be sub-optimal, but so is a sudden deceleration. "Easing" into the turn can actually turn you faster, because the rudder is kept flowing efficiently with the pivoting momentum of the boat. You'll see the AC skippers doing it--turning the wheel slowly into and out of the tack or jibe to keep the speed up.

But you probably already knew that... I just mention it from time to time because I see people "slamming it"--especially with a tiller, and sometimes to the point that the boat almost doesn't turn.

BTW, your swing keel shouldn't be a detriment to speed or pointing compared to other C-25 keels--it's deeper for better lift leverage, and its reduced surface (compared to the fin, I suspect) is good for speed. There has been no good evidence here that the swinger is slower than the fin.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 08:20:38

Dave makes an excellent point! Think about what's happening when a sailboat is tacking on a windward leg. During the time it is closehauled, it is sailing at a 45 deg angle to the mark. During a tack, when it is coasting head-to-wind, it is gaining ground directly to windward (which is the hardest ground for a sailboat to gain.) When it bears off onto the new tack, it is again sailing at only a 45 deg angle to the mark. If the helmsman turns past closehauled during the tack, the boat might actually be losing some precious ground to windward. So, it makes sense to steer the boat through the tack so that it coasts to windward as far as possible during the tack, without losing too much boat speed, and then to stop the tack before the boat begins to sail away from the mark. By slowing the tack very slightly, you also give your release person and jib tailer more time to bring over the jib, haul in the sheet, and get the boat trimmed and driving on the new tack.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/24/2013 08:21:04

OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 09:35:31

In addition to what others have indicated, what is the condition/age of your sails? Dacron sails can last 20 years as far as not suffering significant tears, however, a typical Dacron sail will start to stretch after about 4-5 years and probably effect how close you can tack sometime after.If your sails are say 10-15 years old, new sails will enable your boat to tack significantly closer to windward. Dacron sails are not all made with same thread count or crossweave. The higher quality ones will stretch a lot less as the sails become older/used frequently.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 09:41:59

New sails did much more for pointing ability on our Catalina 25 tall than anything else.

With worn out sails we had much better pointing with the 110% jib than the 135%. When we got a new condition 150% that let us point as high as the 110% with the extra sail area.

I still found it hard to point quite as well as the well raced J24s and San Juan 24s, but we did a lot better than other cruising 25s around us (including other Catalina 25s).

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Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 18:34:44

All excellent points and well taken. I think I may have been going over too hard on the the tack. I guess the hard to lee should be firm to lee but not too hard.

My sails are older . I think the main is in better shape than the jib. Can you tell from the pictures I have posted. How can I measure them to know how stretched ?

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OLarryR
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Response Posted - 09/24/2013 : 21:15:30

It's a bit hard for me to judge from your photo album if the sails are stretched, however, in looking at the last set of photos in the album, you have two photos that show the position that you have the jib/genoa sheet lead block set at and it seems to me that perhaps that block should be adjusted further aft a bit. Others that are more familiar with the exact placement of that block should chime in but perhaps your jib/genoa would be flatter if that block was adjusted further aft.

If the sail is stretched significantly, you can generally see a pronounced roundness in the mid-section of each sail and that area will flap a bit as you approach a close tack. If you point where the Windex is prctically or in line with it's Index tab and the sail's mid-section is flapping, then the sail may have some stretch. If you are outside that Index tab (not quite a close tack) and the mid-section of the sails are flapping, then it is definitely stretched. New sails or sails that have very little stretch, you can be right on the Windex tab and no flapping shoul occur or very slight at most in the mid-section of each sail. Usually, the dead give away is if there are other Cat 25s to compare going at close tack and see if you can keep up at same speed and/or fall of the tack more than the other sailboats. Only issue is that the other boats may also have old, stretched sails and so not always a good comparison. Another way would be to go out on a known race day and either participate in the race or shadow the other boats and see if you can maintain similar tack and speed when the multitude of sailboats of similar size/vintage as yours are close tacked.

I could tell easily from the flapping mid-sections that my old sails were severely stretched (blown out) but when I was some distance from an ongoing race, I was able to easily hold my own with other sailboats of my size going downwind but when tacking close to the wind....I was really falling off and slower than the other boats. That was many years ago. I replaced my main and 150 furling genoa with Quantum sails over 4-5 years ago and they are in very good shape with perhaps a slight bit of stretch just starting to show. These sails are of higher Dacron grade than OEM furnished sails and so my thought is that almost anyone with OEM quality sails that are say more than 12 years old and they regularly sail each year in 10-15mph breezes, after those many years, the sails have to be significantly stretched. The only sails noty stretched by that many years would be sails that were infrequently used or mostly only in 5-10mph breezes and probably not near 10mph that often.

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Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 04:42:46

Thanks Larry Ill try observing other boats of similar size and make. To see if I hold a similar tack.

Question on the windex. With true wind and apparent wind doesnt the position of the vane change.
When I sailing at 4-5 knots I have enough forward velocity that my vane appears perfectly into the wind.
If the wind dies down I cannot point as well and I will then line up the vane with my windex tab.
and my sails are not flapping. Is there some way to better know the true wind direction so I could know how many degrees I am off.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 06:19:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captmorgan
 ...Is there some way to better know the true wind direction so I could know how many degrees I am off.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It involves some tricky geometry you can Google. Or, if you have your smart phone handy and a few spare hands, you can use [url="http://www.sailingcourse.com/keelboat/true_wind_calculator.htm"]these calculators[/url]. (...or you can put boat "in irons", sails centered, and note your compass heading.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/27/2013 06:23:36

awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 07:52:26

There is boat instrumentation that can figure out true wind, but it requires more sensors. The Raymarine gear on my boat can do it with a wind instrument (speed and direction), electronic compass (part of the autopilot), and speed paddle wheel.

I honestly don't understand why it wants the speed paddle wheel instead of speed off of the GPS, but it won't work without the speed paddle wheel.

The highest that you can point is based on apparent wind angle though, not true wind angle, so the windex is fine. Most cruiser/racer boats can point to about 30 degrees apparent, which is about 45 degrees true.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 07:56:18

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Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 08:16:34

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captmorgan
 Thanks Larry Ill try observing other boats of similar size and make. To see if I hold a similar tack.

Question on the windex. With true wind and apparent wind doesnt the position of the vane change.
When I sailing at 4-5 knots I have enough forward velocity that my vane appears perfectly into the wind.
If the wind dies down I cannot point as well and I will then line up the vane with my windex tab.
and my sails are not flapping. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As your boat speed increases or decreases, the position of the windex arrow might change, because as the keel moves through the water faster, it creates an increasing amount of lift. If you are trimming your sails slightly flatter as your boat speed increases, the boat will point a little higher, and that will be reflected in the windex angle, but when the boat is nearing it's maximum speed, the difference in the windex angle will be very slight.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> Is there some way to better know the true wind direction so I could know how many degrees I am off.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">You can steer the boat directly into the wind while watching the compass before the start of the race, and that will tell you the true wind direction at that moment, but the wind direction will probably change somewhat during the race. There are also expensive instruments that will tell you the direction of both the apparent wind, as well as the true wind, but, for the purposes of pointing and tacking, I don't think it's particularly important to know the exact true wind direction. What matters is whether you are generating as much speed as possible, so that the boat is pointing as high as it is capable of pointing, and whether you are tacking it as efficiently as possible. What matters is not whether you are pointing to a specific wind angle, or tacking within a certain wind angle, because the boat's ability to point and tack changes, depending on boat speed, and depending on the existence of chop, and other variable factors. If your boat is pointing higher, footing faster, and tacking more cleanly than the best of your competitors, then you will be doing very well indeed. Knowing the true wind angle won't help you point higher, foot faster, and tack more cleanly. At most, it might help you measure how well you're doing, but, IMO there's a better way of measuring how well you're doing - look at how your performance and finishing position are improving on the race course. So, rather than worrying about the true wind angle, I'd suggest you work on improving your sail trim and your tacking procedures. If you do that, your pointing and tacking angles will improve accordingly.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 09/27/2013 08:18:49

cshaw
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 08:31:11

Something that I have enjoyed doing after the fact is to look at the "track" that my GPS records. Its very revealing of how well we were pointing and following windshifts, and whether our tacks were thru a tacking angle that was what we usually do. In flat water and a 6-8 mph breeze I can, on average, tack Confetti thru around 82-85 degrees for the ground track and still have good boat speed on each tack. The boat is actually pointing higher, but remember a sailboat is also making some amount of leeway, so your path over the bottom is not quite he same as what your compass is telling you. I can point higher in really good conditions, but its easy to try to point too high and end up making more leeway, especially if there is a chop.

I hawk my jib and main telltales and watch the water and feeling from the tiller (I do not have a balanced rudder). I see folks paying more attention to instruments than what the boat and sails are telling them. Instruments can be really great, but I like to actually "sail" the boat more than flying by instruments, at least for me....(even though I have and do use them)

Chuck

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 13:52:39

Ok I will work on technique and speed.

But I have a question still about the vane. At higher winds and boat speed shoul I be able to sail directly into the apparent wind.

John

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 13:55:43

Ill also try to adjust trim moving the car blocks back when pointing

Thanks for the tips

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 14:43:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Captmorgan
 ...Question on the windex. With true wind and apparent wind doesnt the position of the vane change.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">As your boat speed increases or decreases, the position of the windex arrow might change, because as the keel moves through the water faster, it creates an increasing amount of lift...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">...and your forward motion does, as you suspect, cause the apparent wind to move forward. The windex can only show the apparent wind--thus its reading changes with boat speed. The apparent wind (and windex) will move forward as your speed increases, but will always be on the true windward side until you reach a virtually infinite speed, at which the apparent wind will be directly on the nose (which is pretty much the case with an AC-72 at 40+ knots

).

One way to figure out how well you're really pointing is to look at your GPS headings on both starboard and port tacks close-hauled in a given wind. Your true angle to the true wind is half the difference between the two headings. That will take into account your leeway as well as your "apparent" pointing (where the bow is pointed), so as Steve points out, the faster you go, the smaller the difference will be. However, a current can screw it up--widening your angles up-current and narrowing them down-current.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/27/2013 14:58:48

Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 19:59:10

That was very helpful I ll try the calc this weekend\

Thanks

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/28/2013 : 07:45:55

If you Windex is placed improperly it can exaggerate the apparent wind and point higher than you are really going.

This happens if it is placed too far aft of the mast. When the boat is heeling some air is spilling off of the top of the jib and main in line with the mast. This push the windex further forward than it belongs.

The wind instrument on my boat has this issue, I need to climb the mast and flip it to the forward position sometime this fall to fix it.

Edited by - on

Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/29/2013 : 18:45:37

I tried both this weekend. Flatter Jib and slow turn through the tack helped maintain speed it went really well.

What does it meet to point to high and make more lee way in a chop.

I do notice with my 150 genoa it gets hung up on the forestays a lot. I have been waiting until it backfills but the clew knot and hardware tend to get hung up on the forestays. Do you know how to avoid this.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/29/2013 : 19:03:07

Pick the smallest clew knot that you can. What hardware do you have at the clew that is hanging up? There shouldn't be any, metal hardware out there can really hurt if someone gets flogged with the sail.

A single long sheet with a cows hitch in the middle makes for a pretty compact clew knot. An even smaller one can be done by putting an eye splice into the end of each sheet, then use a soft shackle (which has a pretty compact stopper knot in it) to attach the eye splice to the sail clew.

Switching from two sheets with bowlines in them to two sheets with eye splices and soft shackles made a huge difference for my sail when tacking.

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Captmorgan
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Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 19:52:37

Thanks there is a shackle through the clew then the knot through the shackle. That is how it was when I got it. I put heavy tape over it to protect and avoid the getting caught. Ill remove it. I thought is should just be sheets.

I will have to look it up or find a picture . Can you help me understand.

There is the clew I get that. there are the two sheets for the jib with the bowlines ine the end. I get that

What are the other sheets where is the eye splice and how does it connect tot he clew. Ill look up the cow hitch.

In the j24 I was on we just had the two bowlines through the clew.

what is the eyesplice sheet and how long. THis part confuses me.

I found a soft shackle and an eyesplice but I dont know how to use them with the bowlines

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 20:09:17

A lot of us do not have two sheets, we use a continuous line with a hitch in the middle to separate the line into two sheets at the clew. I used to use a swivel snpshackle with the line hitched to the ring on the snapshackle. On my current boat with a furler I do not use a shackle and just hitch to the cringle. Don't worry about the the idea of splicing a line that is very anal. As for two sheets with each tied to the clew, that is something a serious racer or offshore sailor would do so they can replace a sheet while on the opposite tack if some need occurs. The two knots take up more room but the ability to change a single sheet can be persuasive to some.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 20:21:08

The cow hitch is for a single piece of rope that makes both sheets (starboard and port). Fold the line at its midpoint, push the fold through the clew to form a loop on the other side, put both ends of the line through the loop, and pull tight. It is not fool-proof in terms of catching on a shroud, but it's less bulky than some alternatives, and it can't possibly let go. One downside is that it can become very difficult to break loose after a fair amount of use--I had to use a marlin spike and a lot of grunting and groaning.

I'm not a fan of metal shackles on the jib clew--they can be dangerous in a situation where somebody is anywhere near a luffing sail. If you want to be able to release the sheets from the sail (for sail changes), another option is a "toggle" that goes through the loop instead of the two tails or the "soft shackle" going through it. I've seen it but can't find a good illustration right now. The cow hitch is simple and relatively compact, but also relatively permanent, which was OK with my roller furler.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/30/2013 20:24:16

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/30/2013 : 20:42:26

Here's a soft-shackle attachment. The single line that forms both sheets is folded in half, some whipping forms a loop (no splice is needed), and then the "shackle" (another whipped loop) is made inside the sheet loop. The sheet loop is pushed through the clew, and then the tails of the shackle are pushed through the loop.

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MikaDayputs
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Response Posted - 10/01/2013 : 03:54:28

Captmorgan:

What model of RC aircraft did you use to get those great aerial pictures? I'd like to do the same.

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