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Roller Furling Jib/Genoa makes me Race-Illegal?

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ftworthsailor
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USA
279 Posts

Initially Posted - 09/17/2013 : 07:41:57

I was told by another club member that if I install a roller furling Jib/Genoa on my C-25, that it will make me race illegal. Is this accurate?

Catalina 25, Hull #779, Built 1978, FK/SR "Miss Natalie"

Catalina 25, Hull #971, Built 1979, SK/SR,"Sea Legs"

"if we get lost, we'll just pull in somewhere and ask directions."

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 08:12:13

Not for the C-25 National Championship or any PHRF committee I've heard of. I haven't even heard of it changing a handicap. Does your club have some rule?

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/17/2013 08:14:48

ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 08:15:18

No Rule that I am aware of.... but it was a Race Commitee member that made that statement.

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dmpilc
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 08:15:55

Here are the class rules:
http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/racing/c25rules.asp

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 08:22:15

Seems kinda silly... Most opinions are a furler makes you slower, especially if you use it to reduce sail, which yields a poorer shaped sail. (However, lots of flat-out racers use them.)

It would, however, be a good way to decrease your club's race participation, if that's what they're after.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/17/2013 08:28:10

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 08:47:17

I have raced under Portsmouth and PHRF, which are the most commonly used rating systems, and PHRF doesn't either prohibit or penalize the use of a roller furling headsail. On the contrary, it gives a boat an extra handicap allowance for roller furling, because roller furling is slower. I never had occasion to look it up under Portsmouth, but we had some roller furled boats racing in our Portsmouth fleet, and I believe Portsmouth also gave extra handicap time to a roller furling boat.

The fact that a person serves on race committee doesn't necessarily imply that he understands the handicapping formulas. I suggest you ask the question of other knowledgeable local racers. You could also apply for a rating certificate from the rating system that governs your region of the country. Unless your local club is making up it's own local rules, a valid rating certificate should settle the issue.

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Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 10:37:23

PHRF adds 6 secs/mile for R/F and an additional 6 secs/mile if it has a UV cover

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 11:37:02

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Derek Crawford
 PHRF adds 6 secs/mile for R/F and an additional 6 secs/mile if it has a UV cover<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I don't think that's universal around the country.

But the point is, a RF is generally considered a negative, especially because of the normally higher clew, and therefore gets a credit in at least some places (if not in my neighborhood). Why would somebody want to "illegalize" it except to keep "casual" racers out of their hardcore races? Many places are complaining of decreasing participation these days--this would be no way to build it.

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shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 11:55:36

Portsmouth allows a 1 point credit to your rating to go to Roller Furler...
Race boats that use Rollers do so to use Asyms, they take the slight hit upwind to be able to get a huge benefit off wind. Or they use the fancy laminate sails on the furler during racing, and remove that after the race and put up the dacron, and only lose the end plate effect (somewhat) from a deck sweeper. Regardless it SHOULD give you a benefit to rating...

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ftworthsailor
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 12:05:07

I want to switch to a RF so that I can roll the genoa out of the way while I blow the spinnaker out using a spinnaker sock. Since most of my sailing is done solo (except when running a spinnaker), I am looking to make jib/genoa handling easier on me.....

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 17:44:30

Once you use the furler the 1st time you will wonder why you hadn't done it long ago.

I put one on my boat two years ago and it made the difference in me selling the boat and keeping it. I think I've put the main up maybe 3 times in the past two years (I don't race).

It's almost like owning a powerboat. Motor out of marina, pull a string from the cockpit and go sailing. When I'm ready to go in I pull another string and motor in to the slip. Tie up boat, grab cooler and clothes and go home. One time I pulled out of the parking lot about 10 minutes after I pulled in the slip.

If you get a Harken Mark IV furler you can remove the drum and use just the metal foil. My foil has two slots so you can pre-load a different sail for changing conditions allowing you to drop one sail and immediately raise the other. No need to remove a sail and attach another before hoisting. Sail changes could probably be done in 30 seconds or less with a good crew.

I've thought about attaching my 110 while the 150 was on and sail downwind wing n wing!

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 19:16:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 If you get a Harken Mark IV furler you can remove the drum and use just the metal foil. My foil has two slots so you can pre-load a different sail for changing conditions allowing you to drop one sail and immediately raise the other. No need to remove a sail and attach another before hoisting. Sail changes could probably be done in 30 seconds or less with a good crew.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I thought you could hoist the new sail and then "peel off" (drop) the first sail, so you spend no time with a "bare head." Or you can run double headsails downwind. (I haven't done eigher, and I doubt you can do either with the furling drum and swivel in place--just with the foil.)

But I agree--RF changes your life!

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/17/2013 : 19:20:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 If you get a Harken Mark IV furler you can remove the drum and use just the metal foil. My foil has two slots so you can pre-load a different sail for changing conditions allowing you to drop one sail and immediately raise the other. No need to remove a sail and attach another before hoisting. Sail changes could probably be done in 30 seconds or less with a good crew.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I thought you could hoist the new sail and then "peel off" (drop) the first sail, so you spend no time with a "bare head." Or you can run double headsails downwind. (I haven't done eigher, and I doubt you can do either with the furling drum and swivel in place--just with the foil.)

But I agree--RF changes your life!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Actually, I guess you are right, you could raise the new sail and peel off the first. Never crossed my mind to do it that way.

Edited by - on

capted
1st Mate

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Response Posted - 09/25/2013 : 19:34:43

I was amused to watch the America's Cup boats roller furling their "code 0 (genoas?) during light air races. Probably because they're going too fast for a foredeck crew to change sails.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/25/2013 : 19:56:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by capted
 I was amused to watch the America's Cup boats roller furling their "code 0 (genoas?) during light air races. Probably because they're going too fast for a foredeck crew to change sails.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">And look at where that code zero is set--it's on a long, skinny sprit between the two pontoons, but well forward of them. How'd you like to be out there at 30+ knots hoping the boat doesn't dip you?

Instead, they just drop the rolled-up sail from the top and lay the roll on the tramp.

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/26/2013 : 07:37:54

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Once you use the furler the 1st time you will wonder why you hadn't done it long ago.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I disagree.

Furling is nice and it's handy having my main foresail on the boat ready to go all of the time.

It sucks giving up the ability to change sails easily at the dock. As a result almost no one that I know keeps multiple headsails and picks the best one for the conditions.

Partially reefed and rolled up headsails have a terrible shape. Even new sails with foam luff panels and a Harken Mark IV just don't reef into a shape that is anywhere near as nice as a properly cut smaller sail.

We never got perfect at it, but with some practice we were dropping the jib and putting up the spinnaker very quickly. I posted the full set of instructions in another thread, but we were raising the spinnaker in the sock, then dropping the jib while raising the sock. I'm sure that we were dropping the 150% genoa faster than it could be rolled up in a race situation.

On a 25' boat I'm completely in the "hank-on" camp. At a 30' boat I can see arguments either way. Much bigger and I'm completely in the roller furling camp. On my 29' boat I often think that I'd have been happier removing the furler (instead of upgrading it) and getting a few hank-on sails (storm, 110%, 140%) for the same price.

Asym spinnaker specific: They also work better with a bare forestay than when the tack is trying to roll over a furled headsail. I've tried the ATN Tacker and a row of beads, but both have a habit of getting tangled up with the jib sheets and catch on edges of fabric. A hank running on a bare forestay works perfectly.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 09/26/2013 : 08:26:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by GaryB
 Once you use the furler the 1st time you will wonder why you hadn't done it long ago.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I disagree...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> This isn't an arguable point--it's all about your preferences and how you use the boat. Some of us love racing, optimizing, dancing on the foredeck, hauling, folding,... Others love pulling one string and sailing--then pulling another string and being done. Count me in the latter group.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 09/26/2013 08:30:44

awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 08:01:43

I agree, it is very much a preference thing.

Gary wrote his post in such a way that implied that his preference would be everyone's preference. I was explaining another viewpoint. The OP can read both, hopefully sail boats setup both ways, and make up his own mind.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/27/2013 : 20:05:24

I guess it did come across that way. That was not my intent. I'm just excited how much more enjoyable it made my sailing. As you stated, it's really a preference that each person will have to make on their own. One size obviously does not fit all.

I have to disagree that a furler will make you slower. While it will if you have to partially furl, with the sail fully deployed I never saw a difference in speed when I switched from hank-on to furler.

In my opinion, the foil on my Mark IV is small enough and streamlined enough to not effect the airflow over the sail. My Tell Tales are about 12" behind the leading edge of my 150 and they stream back without any signs of turbulence so I'm not sure where the idea came from that furlers are slower.

If someone can clarify the furlers are slower theory for me I'm more than happy to learn something new.

All of the above is simply my opinion and what I have observed on my boat.

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pastmember
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Response Posted - 09/28/2013 : 07:13:52

A Harken is not slower when the sail is completely out but is slower when partially reefed. (Furled is either in or out, in between is reefed, remember only single line systems can truly reef.) The reason it is slower whether the knot meter shows it or not is you are not pointing as high when reefed due to the roll at the luff and the poor sail shape and therefore your point A to B will take longer... ie slower. You may see good speed when reefed because of the big pocket for such a small sail area but it is blowing your bow off the wind and your helm will have to compensate which will actually be "dragging" due to the angle of the rudder. In good and high wind you lose ground to the same boat with hanks verses roller furling. I reluctantly put on a CDI that came uninstalled with my 22' boat because the foredeck on a 22' boat is just too small to possibly have to deal with in a "situation" for this old singlehander otherwise I would not have a furler. Well anyone would take a good Harken (MKIV) but not many of use can invest that kind of money in boats with so little value.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/28/2013 : 09:24:19

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 A Harken is not slower when the sail is completely out but is slower when partially reefed. (Furled is either in or out, in between is reefed, remember only single line systems can truly reef.) The reason it is slower whether the knot meter shows it or not is you are not pointing as high when reefed due to the roll at the luff and the poor sail shape and therefore your point A to B will take longer... ie slower. You may see good speed when reefed because of the big pocket for such a small sail area but it is blowing your bow off the wind and your helm will have to compensate which will actually be "dragging" due to the angle of the rudder. In good and high wind you lose ground to the same boat with hanks verses roller furling. I reluctantly put on a CDI that came uninstalled with my 22' boat because the foredeck on a 22' boat is just too small to possibly have to deal with in a "situation" for this old singlehander otherwise I would not have a furler. Well anyone would take a good Harken (MKIV) but not many of use can invest that kind of money in boats with so little value.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
OK, that makes sense.

I guess the reason I questioned it is the statement seems to be used a lot but isn't often qualified that it's only when partially furled that the boat is slower.

I bought my Mark IV when it was on sale and the price difference at that time between the CDI with ball bearings and mine was something like $300 - $350. I felt the difference in the features between the two (metal foil, twin sail slots) was worth it and put off buying something else I wanted for the boat until a later date.

Doesn't make mine better, it was just my preference and for the first time in my life I could actually afford it so I splurged.
(Probably should have spent the money on new sails since my main is blown out).

Thanks for explaining why a furler is slower. I always like to learn new things.

Edited by - GaryB on 09/28/2013 09:26:07

awetmore
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Response Posted - 09/28/2013 : 09:37:40

Harken Mark IV is a much better furler than a CDI. I hate that the CDI makes it so hard to adjust halyard tension, that is an important sail control.

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GaryB
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Response Posted - 09/28/2013 : 11:04:48

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 I hate that the CDI makes it so hard to adjust halyard tension, that is an important sail control.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I forgot about that. That was one of the main reasons I went with the Harken and I totally forgot about it.

Edited by - GaryB on 10/01/2013 16:53:41

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