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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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How to drain water from bilge

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indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Initially Posted - 10/21/2013 : 18:12:13

Please excuse me if this is a dumb question....I'm a new C25 owner and still learning my way around.
I'm prepping the boat for winter and want to make sure I get all the water out. I just got the boat and the PO had it in the water. I've found a crack which I think is the source (see "newby with crack problem" thread. I'll fix that this spring when it's warm enough and everything is dry.
I've bailed all the water I can get to out but I've not found a way to access the lowest part of the bilge. The PO had put in spray foam in the dinette battery area (see pic below). I removed all the foam and found about an inch of water there. I've cleaned all that out but I'm sure there is a bit more in areas I cannot access.
Am I missing something? I can't believe this boat was designed without access to the lowest part of the bilge. I'm worried about the water freezing and causing damage. Any ideas? Thank-you.

"Lakehouse" 1981 TR/SK #2443 Dinette Model
Eagle Creek Reservoir, Indianapolis, Indiana

Edited by - on

sethp001
Mainsheet C-25 Tech Editor

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814 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2013 : 18:26:13

We use a small battery operated portable bilge pump, which gets most of the water.

Then we use a sponge to get it bone dry.

Edited by - on

indecentseas
1st Mate

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Canada
67 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2013 : 18:59:53

We have a bilge pump. It gets the water down to the level you have photographed. To go further we use a dry/wet vac.

Edited by - on

windseaker
Deckhand

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USA
24 Posts

Response Posted - 10/21/2013 : 19:01:07

A sponge and a bucket

Edited by - on

Admin
Forum Admin

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460 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2013 : 03:47:30

And welcome to the Association Jeff!

Paul

Edited by - on

sfsmith
Navigator

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USA
123 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2013 : 06:39:54

I think the bilge on Tango is easier to access than yours, but for what it's worth I use a small super-soaker squirt gun for anything more than about a quarter inch. After that, a sponge and bucket.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2013 : 06:56:17

I pour about 1/2 gal of RV antifreeze in the bilge, in case some water gets in there during the winter. Also, if you have either a manual or electric bilge pump, you can pump some of the antifreeze out of the bilge and through the bilge pump, to protect it from freezing and breaking.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 10/22/2013 : 07:43:09

If I read the original post correctly, your question had more to do with inaccessible areas rather than removing the last drops from the areas you can get to. The following may not apply to everyone, but in a swing-keel dinette model there's an issue to be aware of.

There are at least two areas in a swing-keel dinette model where significant volume exists between the inner liner and the hull. One is under the sole beneath the table, and the other is under the sole to the stbd. of the midline (the main "floor" of the cabin). I put a Beckson access hatch under the table, and I found a lot of water there. My boat leaks badly when the rubrail dips below the water (which happens a lot on SF Bay with our high winds and high, square chop), and the inner liner leaves a substantial gap running all the way from the primary bulkhead between the salon and the head aft to the large area beneath the quarter berth. When you remove the covers from the stowage compartments beneath the dinette settees and look up above the level of the settees you'll see it. That allows water to spread along that entire side from one compartment to the others when the boat heels excessively to port. With a swing-keel model, at least, the area between the settees can fill up and it is inaccessible (I remember reading at least one other post about this, which is why I decided to check). I've also detected water escaping from the level area beneath the porta-potty. I still haven't gotten around to checking beneath the sole on the stbd.side of the keel case, but it doesn't have any obvious entry gaps. Still, I don't like having any substantial voids to be entirely inaccessible, so I'll be checking at some point.

This is one issue that I consider to be deficient in the design of these boats. I believe that all bilge areas should be interconnected by limber holes to allow drainage and to allow any intrusion to become visible without difficulty. I'm hoping to create limber holes at some point that would allow all of the bilge areas to communicate with the low point in the sole in front of the head and the compression post, where a small bilge pump intake could be located.

If a significant amount of rainwater accumulation (or even salt water, which still freezes, albeit at a lower temperature) was allowed to sit in the bilges while the boat heeled to port, a swing-keel dinette owner could expect to find water under the table. And if the area was full, as mine was, the freezing water could conceivably exert enough pressure to cause damage.

Edited by - on

indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 10/23/2013 : 18:44:07

Thank-you for your replies. Lee, you hit the nail on the head! On my dinette swing keel model, there is no bilge access between the v-birth and the quarter birth. I put a Beckson access hatch under the teak in front of the head. I found water there as well. I'll post a picture on my next trip to the boat. I think under the dinette table may be a better spot though. Where exactly did you put it? I'd like to add one there as too. If you did it again would you put it in the same exact spot? I want to make sure I miss the cross members under the floor.
Does anyone know where the pickup for the manual bilge pump hose is? That hose is missing from my boat.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2013 : 06:58:20

Just a quick reply before I head off to work...

Thanks for the information about finding water under (in front of ?) the head. I'd be interested in opening the main fiberglass portion of the shelf that supports the head as well.

As to the access port under the table, the support for the sole is plywood and the hull is just a simple shell, so there are no cross-members to worry about. Look under the fwd. settee to see how far over the keel case extends, and locate the access port to miss that. If I get a chance to go down to the boat before the weekend and measure where I put mine I'll post it, but I started with a relatively small hole and then used a bent piece of coat-hanger wire to probe around before cutting a larger hole with the jig saw: I wanted assurance that I'd miss the keel case and that there would be sufficient depth for the jig saw blade to not hit the hull. Both answers were positive.

Edited by - Lee Panza on 10/24/2013 07:09:03

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2013 : 08:28:12

I have the “L” shaped interior, so I have a table with the 3” (I think) adjustable leg mounted to the deck. I removed the leg and found there was a hole cut through the deck for mounting purposes. This allowed me to see into the bilge in that area (and discover where it was safe to install an inspection port). What I did later was to use a large hole saw and drill an inspection port near the table leg (which is normally covered with carpet). I mention this for 2 reasons. Number 1 using a hole saw there is very little protruding past the teeth of the saw, only a small center pilot drill bit. So when you have gotten to the point where you are about to finish the hole, you know it. You can slow down and make sure you do not toutch the actual hull with the saw. (Make sure you know where you are drilling, there is not a lot of space under the deck) The number 2 reason: is a round hole is structurally stronger than a square hole. Save the core that you cut out and adhere it to a slightly larger piece of aluminum, so you can put it back as a cover plate.

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indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 10/24/2013 : 18:25:58

Lee,
I agree with Glen...I used a 4 1/4" hole saw for the hole in front of the head. It wasn't nearly as far to the hull as I thought it would be. A jig saw would have cut thru the bottom of the boat! I'll try to post a pic tomorrow to show where I cut the hole.
What you you estimate the distance is between the floor under the dinette and the hull? Is there room for a bilge pump there?...or maybe the manual bilge pump hose?

I know it's not the dinette model, but have you seen this video?..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ARQ2q9_PcBg
It shows some cross members. You don't think we have these?

Thanks again everyone. It's fun learning about these boats.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2013 : 07:07:28

If you put a hole in your floor be sure to install an inspection port so use the hole saw for the port you buy. Inspection ports do not detract from value nearly like a home made cover on a hole will. Glen I admire your initiative but it would take a real craftsman to make their own cover and have it "sell" as well as a conventional inspection port. Often ports in the floor use a pry-out port as opposed to a screw in one.

Another thought would be to install a table post like the L model interior and then the hole would look stock. Table posts are available on ebay in the powerboat area.

Edited by - pastmember on 10/25/2013 07:12:45

glen
Captain

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359 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2013 : 08:24:37

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 If you put a hole in your floor be sure to install an inspection port so use the hole saw for the port you buy. Inspection ports do not detract from value nearly like a home made cover on a hole will. Glen I admire your initiative but it would take a real craftsman to make their own cover and have it "sell" as well as a conventional inspection port. Often ports in the floor use a pry-out port as opposed to a screw in one.

Another thought would be to install a table post like the L model interior and then the hole would look stock. Table posts are available on ebay in the powerboat area.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I have to say Frank, your idea looks pur-tie.
I forgot the mention that I routed the area around the hole so my aluminum plate sits flush under the carpet. As for my thoughts on resale value. I will probably be keeping Adventure till the end (a long time from now I hope). Over the years I have done an extensive amount of work on her, and she now fits me like an old pair of shoes. We all know the value of our lovely crafts, and none of us will be getting rich when we sell them. This is not an excuse to avoid doing things the right way, in fact we need to take care of our boats and maintain them properly. Your cover is the right approach. I’m just saying upgrades and maintenance should not be based on the worth of the vessel. Thank you for your complements, and I appreciate the tips you have passed along. I along with many other members consider you a craftsman, and very knowledgeable about our crafts

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indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 10/25/2013 : 19:34:58

Here is where I put my Beckson access plate....

There is water in there!

Here is a dry fit before sealant and screws. This gets hidden under the teak cover.

I'd like to put another one under the dinette table. Has anyone found a place to put one on the starboard side?

Edited by - indyshelley on 10/25/2013 19:36:35

indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 10/27/2013 : 17:12:31

Okay, I bit the bullet and added a starboard bilge access! I am happy with what I found. There was over 5 gallons of water there!
All port access's were dry(except the head one) and the boat is level fore/aft and port/starboard. I knew there had to be water somewhere because of the standing water I found with the access I added under the head (see post above).
I used a shop vac to "pump" out about 3 gallons. Water slowly returned and after about 15 minutes I pumped out another gallon. After repeating this about 6 times the starboard bilge was dry!

I located the access centered with the dinette table opening but on the starboard side. I stuck a tape measure in the hole to see how far it would go fore and aft. The measurements below show those distances to the center of the access hole (units in inches, not feet like shown). I used a 4 1/4" hole saw. A 3" West Marine screw off access fits this perfectly.

Edited by - indyshelley on 10/27/2013 17:24:04

Lee Panza
Captain

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USA
465 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2013 : 07:02:12

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by indyshelley
 Okay, I bit the bullet and added a starboard bilge access...
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks very much for posting this, Jeff. I'd also like to know how much clearance you have between the cabin sole and the hull at the shallow side (the stbd. side of the hole).

Yesterday I finally got to go out, and before the winds rose to the level that I needed to stay at the helm I was able to measure the hole I had cut under the table. It's a 6" Beckson deck plate, which takes a 6 1/2" hole, and the inner edge of the hole is about 7" from where the sole steps up to the level beneath the table. At the outer edge of the hole there's about 5" between the sole and the hull - plenty of room for a jigsaw blade. Admittedly, a hole saw would be a preferable method, especially since there's not much room between the dinette settees for the back of the jigsaw. The hole could be placed a little closer to the step without encountering the keel case, but then it would interfere with the table support leg. The top of the keel case is rounded, but where it rises vertically from the vee of the hull shape is only about 6" from the step in the sole. The area under the sole beneath the table is clear of obstructions.

Thanks again for the information, Jeff. I'm going to add an access port of some kind in the area that you put yours. I'd encourage you to put another deck plate beneath the table.

Interestingly, there appear to be floors (lateral risers to support the cabin sole) that would compartmentalize the area under the cabin sole. That means there are other sections on that side that may also be holding water. The YouTube video that you pointed to suggests that they aren't watertight, which is probably why you found water slowly refilling the area you opened-up, but that video also seems to confirm that Catalina didn't provide limber holes under the floors at the deepest ends. There may still be some water in those other sections, and the wood forms that were glassed-over are probably saturated (the video indicated that his were very heavy). I've read about people observing significant flex in the cabin sole, and now I understand why. Ideally, there would never be any water down there; in reality, however, that was obviously not a valid design assumption.

Thanks again, Jeff.

Edited by - Lee Panza on 10/28/2013 07:09:52

indyshelley
1st Mate

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USA
45 Posts

Response Posted - 10/28/2013 : 17:18:29

Just got back from the boat and things are really starting to dry up! The new starboard access has just a small trace of water at the deepest part of the hull up against the keel hump.

Lee,
The floor is almost parallel to the hull in this area. The starboard side of the hole is 4" from the top of the floor down to the hull. The port side of the hole is 4 1/8" to the hull.
Thank-you for the location and dimensions of your under table access. I would like to add an access like yours. I think it would be a good place to put a bilge pump. For now, I cut a limber hole under the aft settee to that area. I saw another C25 that had a hole there but mine didn't.

Edited by - indyshelley on 10/28/2013 17:19:13

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