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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Mainsail options?

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jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Initially Posted - 11/14/2013 : 19:36:40

So I'll be getting a new mainsail next spring and I'm looking at options. I sail on an inland lake and the winds in the summer are nothing more than squirrel farts, but the spring and fall are more like holy hell hang on. 5kts in the summer, 20kts in the springfall. Lots of heavy gusts. I will be hauling the boat to the gulf coast for some coastal cruising next summer.

So far, I'm not real keen on partial battens. Seem more trouble than they worth for no more roach than standard rig seams to have. Might be wrong on that.

I'm thinking of two options, full battens or a roachless sail with a longer foot. I have ~16" more on the boom I can use. I don't know that I want full battens at this point. Anyone have experience with a roachless sail on our boats? If I go roachless, I would be looking to have the foot made longer to try and make up the sail area difference. I have a sail maker in the area and he can make anything I need.

Thoughts?

Jeremy Duck
The Lucky Duck
1980 SKSR Hull # 1850

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2013 : 21:08:09

Without getting into the roach and batten issues, I'll suggest for your extreme wind variations that you consider a loose foot with a multi-part out-haul system so you can get a full shape top to bottom in the "farts", and go board-tight in heavy air (and still twist off the top).

I will offer the opinion that trading roach for foot will cost you somewhat in light air, when the best air is up high. Overall area may be equivalent, but the effective area and shape are not. However, lots of in-mast furling systems for cruising boats have roachless sails (since horizontal battens are not possible), and the boats sail OK. It also is sort of a retro look--the opposite of Hunter's!

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/14/2013 21:12:32

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/14/2013 : 21:32:53

Then there's [url="http://johnvigor.blogspot.com/2011/11/dump-that-roach.html"]John Vigor's take[/url]...

Edited by - on

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 05:13:43

Thanks for the thoughts Dave. I planning on going with a loose foot for sure. I'm not exactly sure what a multi-part outhaul looks like. I've got a boomvang off of a Razor for my outhaul. I think it gives me a 2:1 purchase.

I've read more internet forums than one can count on this and I've seen friendlier Ford vs Chevy convos. People get passionate about this.

I think I've come up with what will work for me. My main is blown, and I'm not real worried about not keeping it as a spare. Unless one of the fellows here as sailed a roachless main on a Catalina 25, I think I'll have the roach cut off mine and see how it performs.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 05:59:30

For light air, I'd opt for at least two full battens up high and standard roach.

Edited by - dlucier on 11/15/2013 06:00:19

cshaw
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USA
460 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 07:04:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by jduck00
 So I'll be getting a new mainsail next spring and I'm looking at options. I sail on an inland lake and the winds in the summer are nothing more than squirrel farts, but the spring and fall are more like holy hell hang on. 5kts in the summer, 20kts in the springfall. Lots of heavy gusts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Your winds sound a lot like ours here on the east central Florida coast. I have used a loose footed main for 25 years and would never go back! You can really increase the draft in light air. It really helps. especially on reaches and runs. Racers are not the only sailors that do not like to just sit there!!

About a year and a half ago I got a used main from Derek Crawford when he parted out TSU. It is also loose footed, but has full battens and a large roach. I had always poo-poo'd full battens, but not any more!!! They really help hold the shape in the entire sail, not just because they can support a large roach. The large roach REALLY also helps in light air, but when you flatten the sail (tighten the multi-purchase clew outhaul and the tack downhaul) they do not cause the sail to be overpowering in the heavier air. They also help the sail get furled easier I think, since they help keep the sail along the boom (I may put my lazy jacks back on that I used for years). And finally, I think mains with nice big roaches just simply "look" better, even though that would certainly not be a sufficient reason to have one!

On the downside, Derek warned me that in light air, when you tack, the roach could hang up on the back stay. Yes, it does occasionally..... He also said to simply ease the mainsheet slightly as you go into the tack to help prevent it, and yes,that works fine. I thought the hanging up would cause a lot of additional wear. It seems like it would, but I have not noticed any.

Bottom line (for me any way), is a loose footed main and 4 full battens!

Cheers!!

Chuck

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 07:10:51

Maybe we need to know more about your aversion to battens... Are you trailer-sailing so the sail is coming off frequently? Most of our mains'ls live on the boom all season, and at least newer sails have pretty escape-proof batten pockets, so we "furgettaboutem."

If you draw a straight line from head to clew on Don's brochure picture, I think you can see you need at least the battens pictured with the standard roach. Full versus partial is indeed a lively subject, although for your lighter air, full battens are probably not ideal. Some makers recommend full battens up top and partials below, supporting a larger roach (that tends to scuff the backstay)... That's for pushing performance, and in our case is class-legal.

By multi-part, I mean something greater than 2:1, which would be just from the clew to the boom-end and back. I'd think if you're using a vang, you have at least 3:1 (with a block on each end). Others here with "loose feet" can elaborate on theirs... A loose foot generally calls for more purchase since the boom track isn't taking any pressure from the foot--it's 100% concentrated at the clew. Although if you just set it and forget it, the purchase is not that critical.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 08:04:30

It bears repeating - it's your boat, and you can rig and sail it any way you want, but your choices should be made knowledgeably.

Your sails are the "engine" that drive your boat. If you reduce their power, it won't perform as well. A sailboat's ability to point is directly related to it's speed. If it can't maximize it's speed, it won't point as well. If it doesn't have the power to drive it to windward against chop, you won't be able to get to your destination timely. There is a clear relationship between sail area and sail power.

That being said, your choice might be influenced by your sailing venue. If you ordinarily sail in an area that ordinarily has stronger winds, then you might not need that much power. In stronger winds, the challenge is usually to de-power the mainsail, to keep it on its feet, so a little less drive might be a good thing. Likewise, if you are a long distance sailor, sailing for long periods in tradewinds, you probably won't miss the sail area, and you will benefit from the reduced maintenance concerns that you'll get when you eliminate battens.

If, however, you normally sail in the light winds of the Chesapeake Bay, or on a small inland lake, to name two examples, you might miss the boat speed and the ability to point. If

Sailmakers know how to make good sails, and, regardless of whether or not you are a racer, racers know what sail features maximize performance. A big roach maximizes mainsail power, if that's what you want or need, but a maximized racing roach can be a huge pain for a cruising sailor, because the roach often snags on the backstay every time you tack or gybe. A mainsail with full battens on the top two battens and partial battens below is by far the most common recommendation of most sailmakers for most racer-cruisers, because it's a very good compromise, but a sailmaker will make your sails any way you wish.

If you enjoy the chsllenge of sailing in light air, you'll be glad that you have maximized your sail area. If, however, you furl your sails and start the motor whenever the wind drops below 3-4 kts, you won't miss the lack of a roach.

Sails represent a significant part of the value of your boat. If you pick the wrong sail features for the wrong reasons, you'll have to live with them for awhile. Make your choices thoughtfully.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 08:57:54

BTW, if you opt for no roach and no battens, I believe your sailmaker should cut the sail with a slightly "hollow leech" ("negative roach") so you don't have any flapping of the leech. A leech line might also be called for--I'm not sure... A sail design for an in-mast system would be the model.

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pastmember
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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 13:13:05

There is a sale at Catalina Direct std main is $800 after coupon. marchsails
I loved my Ullman.

And Mr. Duck, the wind is at the top of the mast. A long footed hollow leech sail is not a sail but an awning on its side. As Chuck voted, my favorite sail has been a loose footed full batten main. The added sail handling added by the full battens make shipping a main so simple that it is worthwhile for that alone.

Edited by - pastmember on 11/15/2013 13:57:28

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 14:57:23

A partial batten sail has more roach than a negative cut sail. Remove the battens from your existing sail to see how it flaps around. The stock cut does have roach.

I did 1+3 on the main for my Catalina 25 and that worked pretty well. 2+2 is also a common configuration. Either of these puts the full batten up where it can support the most excess roach, and keeps overall weight down which makes the sail easier to handle.

If you go with too much roach the main will catch on the backstay in light air. It might be worth it to you for the extra potential performance (more sail area) or might just annoy you.

A standard mast height Catalina 25 already has too little sail area in my opinion. I wouldn't consider a batten-less main unless you live in an extremely high wind area, and it doesn't sound like you.

The boom is long on the Catalina 25 to make end of boom sheeting work with the transom mounted traveler. It isn't meant to support sail all the way out to the end of the boom. Any sail cut to use that E would overlap with the backstay by quite a lot.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 16:57:41

The rig was designed by a competent Naval Architect, the E is a well considered specification.
People who have not had full battens simply do not realize what it means to have a full bottom and second batten to grab from the cockpit yank back on which flakes the sail agains the boom. Then one tie holds all of that. A simple step to the companionway and you can grab the third and possibly the top full batten and another tie and you are SAFE; sail down and stowed in a blow without leaving the cockpit. It is so much more appropriate on a 25' boat than big boat solutions to controlling a main when you drop one.

Edited by - on

JohnP
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Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 18:07:01

After I learned to sail on my buddy's C-25 with a blown out main, my boat's crisp, 6 month-old, loose-footed, Ullman main was a joy to sail with. The standard cut has a lot to offer, as mentioned above.

Happy sailing with your new sail!

Edited by - on

jduck00
Captain

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USA
313 Posts

Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 18:19:20

Thanks for the replies. Once again you guys are a wealth of knowledge.

My dislike of the battens on my sail are probably more to do with the age of the sail. I've had to sew two of the batten pockets up to keep the battens in. My biggest challenge is getting the main up without them getting caught on the shrouds. My lovely bride doesn't quite get what into the wind means and I end up launching the main slightly off the wind most of the times. That or I lock the tiller and the boat or the wind shifts slightly while I run up to the mast.

I'm almost done re-running the halyards back to the cockpit so that may solve my problems with that. Given the convo, I think I'll be looking at full batten main.

On the topic of full battens, what extra hardware is required? Do I need to add a track system or will slugs support the battens on sails as small as ours?

The reason I was considering a roachless sail, is the sail is almost a triangle anyway. I've seen some of the fractional rigs in the marina that have way more roach than my little sail. Seems like a lot of trouble for not that much more cloth. Good points about keeping the shape up high. I hadn't considered that.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/15/2013 : 20:09:01

My Ullman sail was a self contained full batten system. The pockets were on the sail and terminated at slugs. Ullman uses good slugs. They also use a jackline that moves luff sail cloth out of the way when you reef. I really liked my total ownership experience with my Ullman sail.

Edited by - pastmember on 11/16/2013 19:38:20

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2013 : 09:02:04

I'll just add that many folks here have gone to Gary Swenson at [url="http://www.ullmanventura.com/"]Ullman Ventura[/url] (CA), who apparently is knowledgeable about these boats and helpful in deciding all the little details of a sail. That's where I would have started, except the sails on the C-25 I bought were just two years old, and still very good when I sold her.

Notice his web page for Catalina sails, with a full-batten, loose-footed main for the C-25...

(Frank, you and your Imax computer did it again... I could hardly find the forum navigation section!)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/16/2013 09:08:31

Derek Crawford
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Response Posted - 11/16/2013 : 14:27:04

After much consultation with a great sailmaker (John Bartlette in Austin) I chose a full-battened, loose-footed main with a large roach. With it I won everything possible to win on Canyon Lake. Chuck Shaw now has it and also sings its praises.
IMHO it is definitely the sail to have on the C25 - it is great for light air and can be de-powered easily for the heavier stuff (and if you reef it you don't tie the surplus around the boom!)

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dmpilc
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USA
4593 Posts

Response Posted - 11/16/2013 : 17:47:58

Ullman and Bartlett are both great sail makers. As for the multi-part outhaul, here's what I used:
Harken single microblock with becket attached to mainsail clew with D-shackle; Harken double micro block attached to boom-end. 1/4" quality line attached to becket, run to double block, back to single block, back to double block, then forward to cleat on boom. Worked very well and easy to adjust. You could also run the line forward to a turning block at the front of the boom and and down to the deck to send it aft to the cockpit.
You need more than a single block or two single blocks in the outhaul, IMHO, if you plan to adjust it under load, especially with a loose-footed main.

Edited by - dmpilc on 11/16/2013 17:51:52

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