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Lifeline Recommendations

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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Initially Posted - 11/17/2013 : 13:39:22

My C250's lifelines are factory original (I think), and are probably due for replacement. They're white vinyl covered, and I'm concerned about corrosion under the vinyl due to oxygen deprivation. So I'm considering removing them and having them replaced.

I'm curious what you guys recommend for replacements. Vinyl covered, like what's there now? Bare SS cable? Amsteel?

On the C250, it looks like if I use steel I would need to remove the stanchions next to the mast and have the ends swaged on after the cable passes through the stanchions, so I would be re-bedding those two stanchions. Is that correct, or do you know some other way to do it? (Note: I know of no riggers nearby who would come to my boat, so I'm assuming I'll have to ship or hand-carry the stanchions down to someone in Annapolis.)

Rick S., Swarthmore, PA
PO of Take Five, 1998 Catalina 250WK #348 (relocated to Baltimore's Inner Harbor)
New owner of 2001 Catalina 34MkII #1535 Breakin' Away (at Rock Hall Landing Marina)

Edited by - TakeFive on 11/17/2013 13:43:20

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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Response Posted - 11/17/2013 : 15:45:50

Can't answer the stanchion question, but I am going with bare stainless when I replace the next year for longevity. Synthetics are light, strong and easily replaced. Easy replacement is a good thing since the recommendation is every two years. Manufacturer's literature might imply more, but I would hate to discover that I waited to long by falling against it.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/17/2013 : 16:11:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Can't answer the stanchion question, but I am going with bare stainless when I replace the next year for longevity. Synthetics are light, strong and easily replaced. Easy replacement is a good thing since the recommendation is every two years. Manufacturer's literature might imply more, but I would hate to discover that I waited to long by falling against it.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No matter how much people rave about synthetic lifelines, and/or how easy they are to replace, I really don't want ones that I have to replace every 2 years.

What are the negatives of bare stainless? Is it just that it's a little harder on your hands or back? We don't ever sit back against the lifelines, and I rarely even hold them in my hands. If I'm at the dock doing maintenance with my legs over the side, I'll have it in my chest under my arms, but that's the only time I can think of being in contact with it for an extended time. So it's pretty much just there for emergency use.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/17/2013 : 20:08:03

Bare lifelines don't need to be replaced at anything like 2-year intervals. I'm not sure where you picked that up.

5 years if you are being conservative. I think more like 10 years might be possible up here in the shady PNW. They are easy to inspect and monitor and will be cheap to replace when the time does come.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/17/2013 : 20:18:49

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by awetmore
 Bare lifelines don't need to be replaced at anything like 2-year intervals. I'm not sure where you picked that up.

5 years if you are being conservative. I think more like 10 years might be possible up here in the shady PNW. They are easy to inspect and monitor and will be cheap to replace when the time does come.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I "picked up" the 2 year synthetic replacement time from from Dave's post.

Define what you mean by "bare lifelines." Are you saying that synthetics would last up to 10 years? Or that bare steel would be likely to last 10 years?

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/17/2013 : 22:03:36

CORRECTION: Two years was suggested when I considered synthetic on my previous boat. USSailing now says 5 years if there is no evidence of chafe or broken fibers and recommends buried, locked, stitched and whipped splices. Replacement is recommended if any damage is revealed by annual inspection. Lashings, if used, should be replaced annually. That is about 1/3 the life of uncoated 316 stainless if there is no damage. I am not arguing against synthetics, I'm just explaining my choice. The downsides of stainless are weight and comfort in the hand. Practical Sailor should be reporting soon on the first year of their long term test with synthetics. The original installation article was 09/2012.
Some other stuff: don't use shrink tubing and a heat gun to whip - 200 degrees can compromise the high modulus fibers. USSailing recommends the buried tail be 72 times the diameter - they vary, but all these fibers are slippery. That said, the splices I put in my vectran halyards meet the rest of the criteria but only have half that tail and have held up for 4 years. But they're not lifelines.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 04:55:53

Part of what turns me off to synthetics is that the specs and caveats seem to be always changing, and/or subject to debate. I seems like it's not fully tested or universally agreed upon.

As for steel, why do the majority of boats that I see still have vinyl coated steel, given the concerns about crevice corrosion? What are the benefits of vinyl coating that make is so popular?

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 07:42:43

The majority of boats have vinyl coated stainless because the lifelines are decades old and built to previous safety standards. I'm pretty sure that the vinyl coated lifelines that I replaced on my Pearson 28-2 were original from when the boat was made in 1986. My prior Catalina 25 is probably floating out there with it's original lifelines from 1984.

The brummel splices and lashings for dyneema lifelines are easy to learn. Once you've purchased the lifeline gates (about $50/ea, my boat requires 4 of them) replacing the lifelines is a pretty quick and inexpensive operation. The lifeline gates will last a very long time, so replacing the lifelines on a Catalina 25 would take about 50' of dyneema or about $50-70. There are 4 splices that take about 5 minutes each, plus maybe 10 minutes to relearn them.

One really nice advantage of dyneema lifelines is that the gates site nicely out of the way when they are open. They don't have any structure themselves or want to stand in the way.

Edited by - on

shnool
Former Capri-25 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 08:18:55

I find this discussion quite relevant, and current... I'd wager my lifelines are original, so no way are they "serviceable" and in a pinch if something happened, I'd be blamed if they failed (even though they look perfectly fine)...

I've contemplated amsteel or the like for synthetic lifelines... but have felt that MY skills weren't up to the task. You folks almost have me believing I can do it myself... and if the cost TRULY is that inexpensive, even replacing once every 2 years, is worthwhile, as it'd be close to the 10 year replacement cost of stainless.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 09:09:48

Brummel splices have seemed to be reliable when I've used them, but USSsailing does not recommend them in their safety standards for lifelines. I'm with Rick - somewhere between an early adopter and a luddite. Maybe I'll change after my next set if I'm still sailing in my eighties.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 11:14:10

Can you quote or cite the US Sailing standards that say a brummel splice isn't up to the job?

All that I can find is their current ruleset stating:
"When HMPE (Dyneema®/Spectra®) is used, it shall be spliced in accordance with the manufacturer’s recommended procedures. "

Samson Rope is clear on how to splice dyneema and does recommend a brummel splice with 72:1 bury. They also document how to do a tail bury eye splice that is sewn for safety. You can use either system.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 11:41:37

SORRY AGAIN. I couldn't think of a way to do an effective, traditional sewn lockstitch on a brummel, but a brummel to take the initial load followed by a lockstitch splice would seem to qualify. One would need to check with USSailing to see if just lock stitching the tail would qualify. I don't mind being out of date and wrong if it leads to clarifying optimal lifelines. Evolving technology mandates evolving standards.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/18/2013 12:01:43

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 12:09:43

I'm still wondering where on US Sailing it has the requirement for a lock stitched brummel. You can just paste a URL.

They don't seem to care how you do it as long as the rope manufacturer approves it as a safe method.

Edited by - on

islander
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 14:08:42

I like this debate. My real thought is that there is no way that the stanchions won't just rip out and your going in the drink anyway. I consider the lifelines on these boats to be purely cosmetic or nice towel driers.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/18/2013 : 15:06:44

I thought that same thing until I caught the corner of a dock while backing out. The stanchion that took the brunt was severely bent but still attached. The screws were bent, one cracked, also. The next two stanchions up the line were also bent as the load was transferred up the lifeline. I believe the system would keep me aboard if I fell, maybe with fewer abrasions if I went synthetic.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/18/2013 15:11:57

hewebb
Admiral

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Response Posted - 11/20/2013 : 04:33:49

I replaced mine with vinyl covered SS. When I got knocked down I grabbed the lifeline gate to stay on the boat. It is ??-probably original as I did not replace it. It has PVC pipe, foam and Sunbrella over it. I just like the looks of the vinyl covered SS. A friend has Dyneema and it seems to be OK.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/20/2013 : 10:55:46

e) When Dyneema®/Spectra® is used, it is recommended that: - Grade SK75 or SK78 is used recommended.
- Splices are used in preference to knots
- Splices should be lock stitched and the throat whipped
- the buried tail should be not less than 72 times the diameter of the line - the buried tail should have a long smooth taper
- all metal edges in contact with the line shall be smoothly rounded with no sharp edges,
- larger than minimum diameter rope should be used, and/or a Dyneema®/Spectra® sleeve in areas of chafe.
- exposing rope to heat above 100oC is avoided (such as a hot air gun for heat shrink tubing.)
- lifelines are replaced after a maximum of 5 years

http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS/SPSC_5(c)_SR26-11(Lifelines)_PL.pdf

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

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Response Posted - 11/20/2013 : 15:57:52

Thanks for the reference.

That was updated in 2012, the new version is here:
http://offshore.ussailing.org/Assets/Offshore/SAS/2012+OSR+Changes.pdf

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/20/2013 : 18:55:08

The fact that the standards are changing so much does agree with TakeFive's concern that it's hard to know how long they'll last. However it doesn't look like the standards are getting any more conservative, every time they change they allow for longer times between changes.

A brummel splice in Amsteel can maintain 90% of line strength (which is over 6000lbs for 1/4" Amsteel), so I feel pretty good about using those as my life lines and making the eyes with brummel eye splices.

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Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/20/2013 : 20:45:49

Yep, 2013: locked brummel. Even "Best Practices" says stitching is not necessary with a locked brummel, only a buried splice.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/20/2013 20:51:49

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/20/2013 : 21:02:06

5 years is a big jump over 2. It will be interesting to see the destruction testing from P/S in their evaluation since previous splice testing in several types of line did not support the old saw of 90%. I don't remember if they had any high modulus lines in that testing. Since USSailing now includes cored line, UV should be less of an issue.

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Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/21/2013 : 08:34:41

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 - all metal edges in contact with the line shall be smoothly rounded with no sharp edges,...<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">This would be a concern for me with a synthetic. The edges of the holes in the stanchion tubing won't be that much of a threat to steel cable, but I wouldn't be confident that they could be "rounded" sufficiently to protect polymer fibers. If I were going synthetic, I'd probably look for something like some little nylon bushings and, if necessary, open up the holes a little to accommodate them. Maybe P/S will weigh in when they report their findings.

(Not that it's an issue for me now--my "lifelines" are solid SS tubes.)

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/21/2013 08:37:09

awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/21/2013 : 08:56:37

I smoothed over the edges and put some vinyl 5/16" OD 1/4" ID tubing in the holes that are in the stanchions. The dyneema lifelines don't touch the stanchions directly.

New England Ropes WR2 (what they suggest for lifelines) is a dyneema cover over a dyneema core. I wonder if it really will last any longer than just going up a size on a dyneema singlebraid? It is harder to splice since you have to deal with the cover. If I'm reading the splice instructions correctly you actually end up with no cover at the splice:
"use the Brummel splice to splice the core to itself, whip the cover to the throat of the splice"

That is from:
http://neropes.com/product.aspx?mid=FBAE29336C3B26FE710A6F20A0FF186C&lid=1&pid=233

It seems like that would really make the splice (and UV exposure at the splice) the weak link of that line.

It does look a little nicer than bare dyneema.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/21/2013 : 15:40:15

I did a standard buried double braid buried splice on my halyards, but also marked the core so I could pull it out and do a core to core stitch splice with a taper, also stitched and whipped. Everything is covered. I would probably do them same with lifelines. Gates that just hang when clipped open is pretty appealing

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awetmore
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Response Posted - 11/22/2013 : 08:24:15

I'd have to see and handle the WR2 in person. I wonder if it has an extremely tight cover and that is why New England Ropes recommends stripping and doing an exposed splice. I've worked with a couple of other lines that have extremely tight covers that make doing a normal core to core splice very difficult.

Even if I had to replace them every 2 years I think I'd go with dyneema life lines to get nice flexible gates.

Edited by - on

delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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Response Posted - 11/22/2013 : 10:06:46

Alex, can you post a link to the gates you used?

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