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Catalina 275 Sport base $78.5

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pastmember
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Initially Posted - 11/24/2013 : 08:59:49

Looks like a Beneteau!
I think this might have a chance at half the price but there is very little boat here for a lot of money. Note the placement of the mast in the interior and also the companionway steps, this is all cockpit with a 250 head so the wife will let you buy it. Note there is no liner in the interior. Only 8'6" beam.

I think the Capri 26 just became a really good deal.

Frank Hopper

Edited by - pastmember on 11/24/2013 09:42:25

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 09:15:08

I agree. People wonder why only older folks are sailing. How many young people with two kids and unpaid student loans can afford to buy an $80,000 27' sailboat?

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 09:57:51

Puzzling, sorta... They appear to be going for the club racing market (like the Capri 25) with little cruising pretense. The cockpit and interior are more for daysailing than cruising. The fractional rig and high-aspect main are more performance-oriented. The retractable sprit is mostly for racers, although the self-tacking blade jib sorta blows my theory. The 8'6" beam--narrower than a J-24--makes it trailerable without permits, for racing events. The Beneteau 25S appears to be the main competition, but has a much smaller cockpit and more cabin for its size.

I've had several friends who started with C-22s and have stepped up 2-3 times to bigger Catalinas, up to C-3X boats... Catalina has apparently give up on offering that kind of "starter"--who knows where that will lead... While a lot of people use their C-25s and C-27s only for daysailing, I think many of them like to think they have a boat they could do a comfortable overnight or weekend on if the spirit moved them. This 275 doesn't really suggest that. Maybe the millennial crowd doesn't think that way.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 11/24/2013 10:03:34

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 13:34:22

You know what they say: if a horse were designed by a committee, you'd end up with a camel! Perhaps the marketing researchers got a bit carried away with themselves and came up with this abomination. Instead of making a smallish boat seem bigger than it really is (which appears to be Catalina's legacy), it looks like an oversized DS Daysailor. Bizarro!

Edited by - Voyager on 11/24/2013 13:37:09

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 13:48:53

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Voyager
 ...it looks like an oversized DS Daysailor. Bizarro!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Wait a minute! I had an O'Day Day Sailer (DS on the sail)--it looked better than that!

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 13:59:44

The preliminary concept for the C-275S was for a racer/daysailor. I think they hit that market, but I agree that it doesn't seem like a big market.

Edit: I certainly didn't expect it to hit the market at 80k.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 11/24/2013 14:01:02

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 14:13:40

To me if I were looking for a racer/daysailer I would buy a used Colgate 26 from a sailing school long before I would look at this thing. I love boats and this is one of the first boats I have seen that I have no interest in whatsoever. Why a wasted 5' behind the traveler... waterline length.... then admit it is a 23' boat and price it accordingly and market is as the 23' boat with the longest waterline on the market. I don't think Frank is going to work at the factory anymore, did he even move to Florida?

Edited by - pastmember on 11/24/2013 14:14:07

Jack Schafer
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 16:09:35

Saw this at the Annapolis boat show. I was intrigued until I saw the price. Wouldn't pay half of that.

Edited by - on

dlucier
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Response Posted - 11/24/2013 : 20:34:59

There's no way boat manufacturers can compete on price with today's starter boat market, which consists of all the boats made since the early 70's. That's why the starter boat market has been pretty much abandoned. A new sailor next to me in the boatyard picked up an early 70's C&C 27 or 29 from the original owner for just a dollar.

Edited by - on

Voyager
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Response Posted - 11/25/2013 : 19:16:37

Dave - abs no disrespect intended. My earlier boat was a knockoff of a DS called an AMF Sunbird, a 16 ft centerboard boat with a small cuddy cabin. Made in Waterbury CT. The DS dinghy looks just fine, but a 27 footer is a horse of a different color.

Edited by - on

shnool
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 04:52:03

I will hold my breath until I see preliminary numbers on performance...
BUT!!! Like I've had to remind many of my sail club members... the most successful part of our sail club is our races. MANY MANY People race, but never overnight on their boats, or only overnight to race (or during).

There are 2 distinct markets within sailing, cruising and racing. For MOST people sailing with more than 2 people is a huge stretch. So that leaves an older professional (fully employed) market with dwindling personal time, that ENJOY sailing, but maximize their sailing time by sailing in Handicap races in groups. There is a social aspect (usually the after party), and it's also usually quite informal...

I'm sorry a Catalina 25 doesn't cut it, the 250 DEFINITELY doesn't cut it... the Capri 26 (no)...

Boats that HIT this market? J/88 (less of the reduced crew and headroom), Beneteau Frist 25s (exact market, and it's $15k-20k more). The First 25s is obviously a much upscaled boat compared to this, but then Catalina wants the sales from those who want all the same things as the Bennies, but for less money.

J/70 (22 foot racer/daysailor, $55k)
J/88 (26 foot racer/daysailor, $125k without sails)
Beneteau 26s (26 foot cruiser/racer, $95k without trailer/sails)
Capri 22 (22 foot daysailor, $28k boat motor trailer)
Catalina 275 (27 foot daysailor/overnighter, 76k boat, motor, trailer)
Left Coast Dart (26 foot racer/daysailor $88k without sails on $20k discount)

Price seems pretty good for the 275, out of MY budget of course.

Edited by - shnool on 11/26/2013 05:06:11

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 07:59:46

John, I suspect you're dead-on. I hope it works for them. Meanwhile, the C-25/250s become anachronisms--sorta like the '60s-'70s muscle cars--affordable used and not available new.

Edited by - on

shnool
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 12:37:25

Oh I think that makes the used "cruiser" market more valuable for those looking for an affordable cruiser that is well built.
I just think Catalina nailed the market with this boat. Maybe I'm wrong.
I JUST WISH, they hadn't clad it in baby blue. Perhaps it'd also help if they put $2 worth of boot stripe on it (edit-Just noticed the video posted had a boot stripe, and nope it doesn't look better with one). Also putting a couple dollars more into the sails might help it's visual appeal.

From the stern the boat looks REALLY interesting. I am darned curious about the speed of it. They are saying disp around #5000 which seems heavy I guess until you consider how big it is. If you throw in a decent inboard.. you have the makings for a nice little club racer that would be easy to sail, and dry. It'd even do some heavier work near shore.

Edited by - shnool on 11/26/2013 12:42:36

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 13:47:49

I've said elsewhere that I don't particularly like this boat, but I'm just a casual daysailer, not a racer. Maybe there's something in the performance aspects that will make it compelling.

I had assumed that the baby blue hull was a one-off for the prototypes and/or an extra cost option. So all of them will be made that way?

Just curious - how do they do a color like that from the factory. Is the gel coat blue, or do they make a white hull with Awlgrip? That could have a big effect on hull maintenance.

Edited by - on

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 20:22:33

I predict a short run. It will be interesting to hear the numbers but it just does not hit any sweet spot I know of, especially since it is not OD. Sometimes I think Catalina has lost sight of its niche and is no longer pricing their market.

Blue gelcoat.

Edited by - pastmember on 11/26/2013 20:30:57

bigelowp
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 20:32:54

So many issues here!

First, there are many very well healed young sailors out there who could give a damned about sail-ability but will do anything for speed and prestige. Second, the J Boats have set a standard for racers/"cruisers" so the expectations for creature comforts are less than in the past. Finally, as we age, the new often looks ridiculous compared to our paradigm. I think the newer Catalina offerings look like crap -- the cruising boats are Beneteau wanna bees and the older Catalina's look a whole lot better. If you look at the statistics the older hulls sail better as well (unless light wind is all you sail in). But, I am a fossil -- younger want hot looking racing machines -- or so the sailing folk think.

Years ago I was offered the chance to purchase the CD Typhoon molds. A quick survey found that there were so many used hulls that there was no market for a new offering. As long as our fiberglass oldies hold up I doubt that we will see good looking, good sailing newer offerings. But when our's are dead, the paradigm will be for the plumb bow, light air racer/sailers. So . . . enjoy what we have!!!

Edited by - bigelowp on 11/26/2013 20:33:49

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 21:25:46

Even the cruisers have plumb bows and fat sterns. Try sailing that when you don't have 600 pounds of rail meet.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/26/2013 : 22:04:47

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 Even the cruisers have plumb bows and fat sterns. Try sailing that when you don't have 600 pounds of rail meet.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It's called "form stability"--could be one reason the C-250 has less ballast than the C-25.

I agree with Peter on the paradigm... We old farts look at a BMW M3 and say, "I'll take a full-house 409 Impala."

Edited by - on

TCurran
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 04:07:00

Not really keen on its looks, plan on seeing it in St Pete next week. I like the lines of the older C30s, C27s, and C25s much better. But I like the lines of the even older Alberg designed boats even better.

Anyone else going to the St Pete show next week? I will be there Thursday.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 06:24:26

I saw the C275 at the Annapolis boat show and think I'd have to sail one to know whether I'd like it. The jibsheet runs through a turning block on the gunwale to a winch on the coach roof. Under sail, the jibsheet would effectively block crew from going forward on the leeward side. If the boat is rigged so that it can be sailed entirely from the cockpit, that might not be much of a problem, but invariably something gets tangled, and that requires someone to go forward to unsnarl it. On the plus side, that placement moves the jib tailer forward, farther out of the way of the helmsman and the swinging tiller.

Catalina says the jib is self tending. For that to be true, you couldn't have an overlapping jib. That makes me wonder whether the boat is capable of flying a bigger, overlapping jib in light air.

It appears that the boat is designed to sail downwind under an assymetrical spinnaker, which makes it much easier to race with fewer skilled crew.

I notice that the Catalina factory website doesn't list a website yet for the C275 Association. In fact, I'd be surprised if their new association has even been formed yet. I'd like to see our association offer to host the new C275 Association. If the new association has no officers yet, then the proposal should be made to the factory. When we took on the C250s and the Capri 25s, our existing members were able to offer advice and make contributions to their threads until they had enough members to carry that burden themselves. We certainly could do the same for the C275s, and it would be interesting for us to see how the new owners learn to sail their new design.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/27/2013 06:26:11

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 07:18:22

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...If the new association has no officers yet, then the proposal should be made to the factory....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Are there even owners yet? If they read this thread, they might decide to keep looking (for a boat and for an association).

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 07:49:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Steve Milby
 ...If the new association has no officers yet, then the proposal should be made to the factory....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Are there even owners yet? If they read this thread, they might decide to keep looking (for a boat and for an association).

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">Aw, shucks! Some members were pretty harsh in their evaluations of the C250 at first. Some still are, especially if they haven't had much hands-on experience with one, but that didn't stop C250 owners from coming here. But that just means our members think critically about our boats and how to sail them. If new owners want to read glowing praises of their boats, they can read the manufacturer's advertisements. If they want thoughtful suggestions that might help them figure out how to get the most out of them, then this might be a good place to start. We have lots of members with a wealth of racing and cruising experience on lots of different boats.

I think it's a good match-up. We have alot to offer them, and they can breathe new interest in our website.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/27/2013 07:52:44

pastmember
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 09:06:04

I think their target market tweets rather than sits around their desktop in slippers...

Winter cockpit...

Edited by - on

Dave5041
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 09:37:44

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">It's called "form stability"--could be one reason the C-250 has less ballast than the C-25.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Form stability is fine in light to moderate winds, but when a fat stern heels the buoyancy aft drives the bow off the wind. Not a real good thing. It's good for racers because of rail meat to offset the aft buoyancy and it is faster down wind. The underbody of the 250 is still fairly trim, so it initially sails flatter and doesn't develop as much lift later.

Edited by - on

shnool
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 10:00:34

Hadn't thought of drawing in the 275 owners into our little nest... Brilliant suggestion Steve!

Yes auto-tacking means less than 100%. I see it IS a jib not a genoa in the sailing picts (90ish)
I can tell you right now if I were to buy one (and I cannot afford to), I'd be removing that self-tacker pronto, and going to winches on the side decks, and ordering a genoa up to 155% to mount on that furler.... I'd want the genoa for light air, I'd use it only in the lightest of air, and go to the blade when the winds hit say 10-12knots... That'd make this beast fast upwind and down. Yes you'd need railmeat to keep it flat. Also yes the Asym is strictly for off the wind, and sailing hotter angles... My bet is the genoa would probably only be useful from 35 to 65 degrees off, at anything deeper, you'd likely be better off sailing deeper and faster for VMG... then it'd be faster to fly the asym, and fall off to fill it. That sprit looks significant enough to add decent power to the rig.

Question is... is it the aim for Catalina to make this OD? I think the answer is NO, since they are talking 275S and 275 models. My bet is they see how they get ordered before they decide.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
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Response Posted - 11/27/2013 : 10:26:14

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by shnool
 Hadn't thought of drawing in the 275 owners into our little nest... Brilliant suggestion Steve!<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"> Thanks John. It's true that we might be early in broaching the subject, but good things don't usually happen when you sit and wait for them to happen. Sometimes you can make them happen.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Question is... is it the aim for Catalina to make this OD? I think the answer is NO, since they are talking 275S and 275 models. My bet is they see how they get ordered before they decide.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">It isn't up to Catalina to decide that question. That's up to the owners. If enough are sold in a single area to form a racing fleet, then they can choose to race one design in their own fleet, with their own, separate racing starts, or they can choose to race PHRF against other boats in their PHRF class. It's the same as with your Capri. You can choose to race one design against other Capri 25s, or you could choose to race against J24s and Catalina 25s and ODays, etc.. Until enough 275s have been sold in any given sailing venue to justify the formation of a one design racing fleet, they will undoubtedly race phrf, against all comers.

Even though Catalina 27s were built in several different iterations, it appears that the ones that race one design (on the Chesapeake Bay, at least) are all fin keel, standard rig, outboard powered. The other iterations of C27s race PHRF, instead of in the one design fleet. I don't know how that was decided - probably just because it made sense.

Edited by - Steve Milby on 11/27/2013 10:27:22

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