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forestay and furler

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zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Initially Posted - 12/13/2013 : 17:34:05

We're considering to replace our 110% hank-on jib with new 110% furling gear and sail

Defender sells the "Sea-flex:, furler for small sailboats. It comes as a kit with instructions and needs to be fitted to our '95 C250 WB forestay. Looking through the manual most questions are addressed.

Couple of questions remain

How does the forestay get tightened, when raising the mast, after the furler has been installed

Which sail manufacturer would you recommend

Henk & Johanna
"Floating", a few off your "barnacles".
"Someday Lady" '95 C250WB #151 ('03 - 2016)
"Sea ya" 30ft Bayliner (04-2018 - 09-2018)
"Mariah" '96 C250WB #191 (05-2019 - 15-05-2023)
"Lady J" '00 C250WK #499 (05-2021 - 09-2022)

Edited by - on

britinusa
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5404 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 04:37:29

Henk, looking at the Data sheet on their website, they don't show the prospective buyer much info on the equipment although it looks a neat system.

When you say 'get tightened', the stay is secured to the lower portion of the furler, so it looks like it has to be shortened. The furler is secured to the existing bow strap with the pin shown between the straps on underside of the lower part of the furler.

So the stay does not get 'tightened', simply leave the backstay off, raise the mast, connect the furler to the bow strap then apply the backstay.

It's called 'Sea Flex' but I do wonder how 'flexible' the extrusion is. We have the CDI furler and the extrusion can be bent into a circle, pretty large diameter, I think it's like 6'. But it's flexible enough to lay along the mast when being trailed.

Tom Potter built a furler support system for keeping the furler pretty straight while towing. We use the front end of Tom's design, but his system included blocks bungeed to the mast at intervals which kept the furler extrusion very well supported. I strap our fuler to the mast with a very long piece of line half hitched every 4 or 5 feet along the mast.

Paul

Edited by - on

Sloop Smitten
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1181 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 09:37:20

Henk,
I can't speak specifically about the Sea-flex but when I set up my CDI the first thing I did was to measure the tension on my backstay. After I installed the furler I tightened up the backstay to the recorded tension. This at least got me in the ballpark and I tweaked it from there. I have no idea how you could measure forestay tension with a furler attached. As much as you trailer I would give serious thought to a CDI unit. At least you will lessen the chance of damage while underway. Don't people use CDI FF2 furlers on C250's? I know the C25 requires an FF4 but I thought C250's could get away with the cheaper FF2.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
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Djibouti
9081 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 09:41:04

Is this unit long enough? They specify maximum headstay length (pin-to-pin) of 33'.

They say it's plastic--maybe that means the extrusion, which would be sorta like a CDI. Their statements about fitting over existing headstays and turnbuckles makes me wonder about Paul's suggestion that the heastay attaches to it, and it attaches to the stem fitting.

One other observation: The drum doesn't look very big. Its size can limit the size of the sail (foot length) and/or the diameter of the line. The CDIs that go on C-250s appear to have a larger drum. The claim that this is for boats up to 26' is not necessarily a guarantee that it's right for every 25-footer.

EDIT: I guess it's long enough--the mast isn't as tall as I was thinking.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 12/14/2013 11:30:59

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 14:32:06

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Sloop Smitten
 ...Don't people use CDI FF2 furlers on C250's? I know the C25 requires an FF4 but I thought C250's could get away with the cheaper FF2.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I beleive that C250s that came from the factory with furlers had FF2 on the water ballast boats, and FF4 on the fixed keel boats. Mine has the latter.

I think the reason for the difference is that most WB models use a 110 genoa, and WK versions often use 135 (and occasionally 150). The FF4's larger drum will accommodate a longer furling line.

Edited by - TakeFive on 12/14/2013 16:36:09

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 16:01:14

Thanks guys... Just googled CDI's site for more information and watched a short video on YouTube

One, puzzle remains. How does one tighten the forestay turnbuckle while it is covered and inside furler drum arrangement with no way to get at this to adjust rigging tension.

We raise and lower the mast by using the forestay and release/tightening rigging tension using the forestay turnbuckle only. It takes about 2.5 inch on the turnbuckle before the pin can be removed or inserted

We probably are missing something very simple

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 16:33:25

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zeil
 ...How does one tighten the forestay turnbuckle while it is covered and inside furler drum arrangement with no way to get at this to adjust rigging tension.

We raise and lower the mast by using the forestay and release/tightening rigging tension using the forestay turnbuckle only. It takes about 2.5 inch on the turnbuckle before the pin can be removed or inserted

We probably are missing something very simple

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Henk,

Since I drop the mast once a year with a FF4, and also disassembled it to install a ball bearing upgrade and another time to adjust mast rake, I can provide some help.

First, if you're going with CDI, get familiar with the appropriate manual before making your purchase. The drawings may make some of my comments more understandable. [url="http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF2%20manual%207_06.pdf"]FF2[/url], [url="http://www.sailcdi.com/sailpdf/FF4&6%20manual%207_06.pdf"]FF4-6[/url]

Let's start with dropping/raising the mast. I don't adjust the forestay. It's much easier to adjust the backstay, even though I need to stand on a stool. I have a split backstay, and this will be much easier if you do too. (It's one of the main reasons that I have not converted to single backstay.) I loosen by <s>20</s> 10 turns, then attach mainsheet tackle to the split joint (at top) and port D-ring (at bottom) to create slack in the port side. I release the port shackle and remove port backstay. Releasing the port side (but leaving starboard attached) keeps the mast under full control, but that (and securing the mast raising system, halyard, or other means to hold the mast forward) provides sufficient slack to remove the clevis pin at the stem chainplate. No matter how much slack you have, it still takes some tugging because of the forestay sag caused by the weight of the furler extrusion. I believe CDI has switched from aluminum to plastic extrusion, so yours might be lighter. You should always remove the genoa first, because its weight will only make the task more difficult.

It is possible to adjust the turnbuckle under the furling drum. It's not terribly difficult, just tedious. Tedious enough that you want to do it once, and after that use the backstay to de-tension as I described above.

The following applies to my FF4. The FF2 may be different:

The drum sits on a cylindrical Teflon slider bearing or on a ball-bearing upgrade if you have that instead (see manual p. 7). There is a clevis pin in the drum that supports the weight of the extrusion and sail (page 9). You'll get familiar with this when you assemble it.

Once assembled, you can get to the turnbuckle by removing the clevis pin and gently allowing the extrusion to fall until it hits your turnbuckle inside the drum. Then the drum can be easily slid up to expose the turnbuckle. Once you see the bottom of the extrusion, lift that also and apply a clamp or vicegrips gently above the swage fitting to keep both the drum and extrusion out of your way. You can now adjust the turnbuckle. If you have the original Catalina bronze cylinder turnbuckles, there may be some close clearances with the t-bolt, antirotation strap, and stainless steel cup. It took me a few tries to get the mast rake to my liking without bottoming out the turnbuckle in the cup. I would recommend that when you disassemble your forestay to install the furler, count the turns to take apart your turnbuckle so you can reassemble with precisely the same length forestay. This will save you having to repeat the process to adjust mast rake, and could also allow you to do it with the mast down.

As I said, these adjustments under the furler drum are something you should strive to do only once, and then do all de-tensioning with your backstay.

Edited by - TakeFive on 12/14/2013 19:02:48

britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 17:08:38

Henk (et.al.)
We raise and drop out stick every trip.

The forestay/furler was adjusted when we purchased the boat and we have never altered the length of the forestay.

We use the backstay to adjust the bend in the mast / forestay tension.

I mentioned that we have the backstay disconnected after each lowering of the mast and do not reconnect it/ apply tension to it until the furler/forestay is attached.

Look for Dave Elliott's posts as to the consequences of leaving the back stay connected when taking the strain off the forestay when preparing to lower the mast.

Paul

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 18:34:14

Good information guys... thanks

Allow us a few more questions

(Take Five you quote...)
I loosen by 20 turns, then attach mainsheet tackle to the split joint (at top) and port D-ring (at bottom) to create slack in the port side. I release the port shackle and remove port backstay.

Could you please explain in more detail... what part is loosened by 20 turns and exactly where do you attach the mainsheet tackle... then when raising the mast how do you again tension the rig... if possible could you provide a simple sketch. Sorry for being so foggy about this detail...

Paul... how do you store the furler when the boat is on the trailer and keep it away from heat that will, even in BC, accumulate under a tarp and thereby voiding warranty

Edited by - on

TakeFive
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Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 19:02:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zeil
 
Good information guys... thanks

Allow us a few more questions

(Take Five you quote...)
I loosen by 20 turns, then attach mainsheet tackle to the split joint (at top) and port D-ring (at bottom) to create slack in the port side. I release the port shackle and remove port backstay.

Could you please explain in more detail... what part is loosened by 20 turns and exactly where do you attach the mainsheet tackle... then when raising the mast how do you again tension the rig... if possible could you provide a simple sketch. Sorry for being so foggy about this detail...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
No time for a sketch right now, so let me try words again.

When the mast is up, my backstay turnbuckle is above the joiner where the two splits meet. It's about 6.5' up in the air, so I use a stool in the cockpit to reach it with a screwdriver (to turn the turnbuckle) and wrench (to prevent the swage from twisting).

To lower the mast, I first loosen upper and lower shrouds, then I loosen the backstay turnbuckle by <s>20</s> 10 (correction) turns. (Make sure you have >>10 turns on the threads, or your mast may fall.

)

Then using a couple of short lengths of ~3/16" line, I lash the mainsheet tackle to somewhere on that joiner, and to the D-ring where the port backstay attaches, to create a second port temporary backstay which is adjustable. I tension the tackle with 4:1 purchase, and this provides enough slack on the port backstay to get the shackle off the D-ring. Then I release and remove the tackle, and attach the shackle to the starboard D-ring to keep it out of the way for the winter. Releasing the port side provides plenty of slack to get the forestay off, but still keeps the mast under control.

NOTE: I re-checked my notes, and while I used to loosen the backstay by 20 turns, since I started using the 4:1 tackle I only have to loosen it 10 turns

To raise the mast, I just reverse the process. Once the mast is up with the starboard backstay holding it, I reattach and tension the tackle on the port side, attach the stainless backstay shackle, release and remove the tackle, then tighten the backstay turnbuckle 10 turns. Once the boat is on the water, I tweak the turnbuckles to match my normal tension readings.

Edited by - TakeFive on 12/14/2013 20:32:37

britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/14/2013 : 19:15:07

Henk, by chance, I'm in the middle of rebuilding my 8 year old furler support.

Basically it's a 6' length of 3" PVC tubing cut in half along the length.

One half is cut to 4' long.

Then the two pieces are bolted together such that one end of each piece are level and the pieces form a figure 8 with not top or bottom, ie. top half is open on top and bottom half is open on bottom.

Then the short bottom length is positioned on the front side of the mast in the trailed position so that the 6' length extends beyond the foot of the mast.

Now the Furler drum fits beyond the end of the PVC piping, but the furler is supported.

I'll take pics when the rebuild is done.

Paul

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 12/15/2013 : 19:44:20

We're finally getting the picture... thanks for the detail

Funny... but can't seem to visualize having a turnbuckle on the back-stay above the split. We'll visit the boat tomorrow and take a good look at the top and bottom of the back-stay arrangement.

At the same time we'll measure to fore-stay length to make sure we have a standard rig on our '95 hull 151 C250 WB hull (CTA0151E595)

Paul; We're looking forward to your furler support system photo's. Have you experienced any luff deterioration due to excessive heat build-up under the tarp? It can get pretty hot under the tarp.

Just last year we added a cut-in-half 10 ft long 4" PVC pipe sections. This goes over the top of the entire mast, below the tarp, and rest on the bungees, located at every 2 ft or so, holding the rigging in place during transport and winter storage. The deck/steaming light is cleared by screwing 2 wedges inside the pipe on either side of the fixture. It somewhat insulates the mast from the weather when stored below a tarp for the winter. A plastic bucket, held with bungees, covers the anchor light. I guess we'll have to remove and store the luff somewhere straight and protect it also from extreme temperatures

Edited by - on

britinusa
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Response Posted - 12/16/2013 : 04:29:51

Henk,
no deterioration in 8 years!

Also, I feed the single backstay through the gap in the mast head so that it forms a coil that hangs off the backstay pin in the aft end of the masthead. A piece of velcro secures the coil to the aft mast crutch during trailering.

I tried all sorts of ways to stop the furler drum bouncing off the deck when lowering the mast. Securing the furler to the lifelines with a giant Carabiners.

Finally, I made a Sunbrella cover (similar to a winch cover) with a leather interior base, it has a pull string to secure it around the furler drum. Then after taking the strain on the spare halyard and releasing the furler from the bow strap, I put the baggy over the drum and tie it tight, then secure the furler extrusion to the mast above the cleats so the end of the furler is pointing down on the foredeck. Now I can lower the mast with the furler in place and it won't try to fall off the side of the mast and the drum won't bang around on the foredeck as it is comfy inside it's baggy.

I leave the furler cover in place while JD is on the trailer.

Didn't get any further with the new furler support yet.

Paul

Edited by - britinusa on 12/16/2013 04:32:13

zeil
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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 12/17/2013 : 20:52:03

Had a look at the boat today. Took some measurements, photo's and changed both de-humidifyer crystals in the cabin at the same time

Just for the record the fore-stay diameter is 3/16", the fore-stay turnbuckle's diameter is 5/8" and the mast from foot to the fore-stay pin is 28'-5"

The question of the turnbuckle at the split back-stay is answered and yes... we're able to use this to release tension on the fore-stay, undo the port side split back-stay, insert the pin, now equipped with the furler, on the fore-stay, re-connect the port side split back-stay and re-tension the rigging to the original setting using the back-stay turnbuckle. Please confirm that this is the procedure you've outlined. (Seems like a lot of extra work)

We'll continue to study both the SeaFlex and CDI manuals and do some pricing. Any sail recommendations?

The turnbuckle in question... funny how it has always been in our face and yet couldn't recall it

Note" A 4" pvc cut in half, separating the winter tarp from the mast in all but a few locations.

Split back-stay at stanchion.

Edited by - on

awetmore
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1144 Posts

Response Posted - 12/18/2013 : 14:15:47

I haven't used the SeaFlex, but on paper it looks a lot better than the CDI to me for one big reason. The CDI furler doesn't use a masthead halyard, it has one that runs up and down the furler. This allows them to make it a lot cheaper by keeping out one expensive component, the sail head swivel. However it makes it very hard to adjust halyard tension while sailing, or to get a high halyard tension.

The SeaFlex looks like it is of the more traditional design and will allow you to easily adjust the halyard tension while sailing.

Halyard tension is an important sail control, don't give it up!

Edited by - on

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