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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Newbie-Diesel engines

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Kip C
Navigator

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USA
243 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/11/2003 : 21:28:37

Hi Everyone,
After putting my toe in the water over in the swap meet a couple of weeks ago, I guess this is my official big splash. First thing, I want to thank everyone for all the knowlege I have already gained from reading all the previous postings in this forum. For those who didn't read my posting, my family of four (the little ones are 2 and 5) is looking for our first boat. More and more I'm leaning towards a wing,'82 or newer and within a days drive of Cincinnati,Ohio. Oh, we want to be able to trailer it to different places, so that also means a trailer. We will be keeping it on a buoy at Brookville Lake in Indiana. (Being the positive thinkers that we are, we already have a buoy!)
Although we are relatively new to sailing, I have already learned so much due to this very cool forum. Now that you know a little about me...I'm going to ask for some input from all of you. First, I would like to get some general opinions on the pro's an con's on inboard diesel engines? And second, I'm curious why the later models' trailers ('89 and older) seem to have bunks versus rollers? Any insight if one is preferred over the other? For the moment these are my first big questions.

Kip

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 22:04:52

Inboard diesels have some strong points.

A big advantage of the the C-25 diesel is simply due to the fact that it is an inboard.

As such, it has it's prop well down under the boat... In rough water it won't cavitate (catch air) like an outboard pitching up and down on the stern.

Diesel is preferred for sailboat inboards as the flash point of the fuel is higher and is generally non-explosive (read safer).

Yet another advantage is that the weight of the engine is carried lower and is more amidships than an outboard, which enhances the overall stability of the boat. Also, since the diesel is built in, there's no hassle of mounting/demounting an outboard for trailering. It's always there, ready to go. Isn't likely to be stolen either.

Downside of the inboards: First is cost..., Second, It takes up room inside the boat, third, it can't be simply unbolted from the transom and taken to a shop if it needs repair. Fourth, you have a packing gland (shaft seal) down below the waterline that requires occasional attention.

All the above said, I wish I had one.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2003 : 22:24:01

"First, I would like to get some general opinions on the pro's an con's on inboard diesel engines?"

I think the major con of the inboard is that they are rarer than an 89' Wing. (Although there is an 89' Wing Inboard currently in the Swap Meet http://www.catalina25-250.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2658)

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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lcharlot
Master Marine Consultant

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Antigua and Barbuda
1301 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 01:42:55

Clam Beach lists mostof the pro's and con's of diesel in general. A couple of specifics about the Catalina 25 inboard diesel: Access to it is very cramped, you have to lay in the quarter berth or remove the companionway stairs. depending on what maintenance you are doing. Also, if it somehow suffers major damage, replacement is on the order of 3 times the cost of a new Yamaha or Honda 9.9 outboard. Manouvering the boat in tight quarters, like in a crowded Marina, is more difficult because the inboard diesel equipped Catalina 25 has at least double the turning radius (at low speeds) of a boat with an outboard.
However, if your home waters often see rough conditions, the inboard is preferred. I probably don't have to tell you how bad diesel exhaust smells. Also, if the engine or any fuel system component has even a tiny leak, the interior of the boat will reek of diesel fuel. Some people like the smell, I don't; although I do drive a Dodge Cummins diesel pickup, I wouldn't want my boat to smell of diesel inside the cabin.

As for trailers, I cannot remember ever seeing a Catalina 25 trailer with bunks. All of them at Folsom Lake (at least 20 boats) are on roller trailers when they are in dry storage over the winter. I would not think you could put a Cat 25 on bunks - the boat is too heavy and the hull is too rounded underneath. The worst thing about bunks is that when they get old and rotten, they can suddenly fail, causing the vertical posts to punch up through the boat. I've seen it happen to a Catalina 22. On a typical roller trailer with 32 rollers, if one roller fails, it's not catastrophic. And I have never seen a roller fail. Since they are synthetic, they can't rot like wood.

Larry Charlot
Catalina 25 #1205 "Quiet Time"
Sacramento, CA

Edited by - on

Dennis Pierce
1st Mate

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USA
59 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 08:32:21

I've owned a Cat-27 and Cat-30 with Atomic 4 gas inboards and a Cat-30 with a 3 cylinder Atomic diesel inboard. There is no doubt that diesel is safer, however, gas is not a problem with a bilge blower, good venting and a healthy dose of common sense.

The 3 cylinder diesel shakes, is noisey and smelly. The guys at the fuel docks really love a sailboat coming in for 8 gallons of diesel!

I put electronic ignitions on my Atomic 4 engines and never had a problem. They are a lot of old Clark fork lift motor parts like the water pump, distributor, carb, etc that can be used as replacement parts for big savings.

As I had 2 Cat-30's, one with gas and the other with diesel, I can attest to the fact that the gas engine is faster, cleaner burning and much easier to work on. Too, you can stop by the gas station, fill up a gerry can with gas and filler up at the dock. Spill a little diesel on the carpet of the new Yukon and you'll never be rid of the smell.

Finally, I quit buying diesel pick ups as I could never pencil out the extra purchase cost vs the mileage factor. And now that diesel costs more than gas, there's no percentage in going with a diesel for non-commercial applications. I have an F250 Super Duty that hauls 13,000 pounds over Colorado mountain passes without any problems.

You can always get a diesel outboard!

Dennis Pierce
Gypsy Witch #1719

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

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USA
5938 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 13:03:23

Kip,

If you were going to be sailing primarily in areas of big seas, a diesel would be great, but I can't remember the last time the waves on Brookville Lake got big enough to cause an outboard motor with a long shaft to cavitate. Also, when you raise your sails, you lift the outboard propeller and shaft out of the water. If you have a diesel with a fixed prop, the propeller drags through the water continuously, and it slows the boat significantly. I wouldn't turn down a nice diesel boat at a good price, but I certainly wouldn't pay a premium for one to use on an inland lake.

I have seen C-25s on trailers with bunks, mostly on wing or swing keel boats, but they are rare. A trailer with rollers makes it easier to launch and retrieve the boat, but a fin keel boat isn't easy to launch or retrieve from either type of trailer, partly because it isn't always easy to find a launch ramp that is deep enough. Some people believe a trailer with bunks supports the hull of the boat better than rollers, but I have never seen a C-25 that was hurt by carrying it on a trailer with rollers.

I agree with most of what everyone else says, but, a fixed prop boat has about the same turning radius as an outboard boat, and can be rotated almost within its own length.

Thanks for the sailing calendar that you sent me. It made my day.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Steve Milby "Captiva Wind" C-25 T/FK #2554

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John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 14:13:34

One other thing about a trailer with bunks. The guys working the sling hate 'em. I have my boat slung into the water and back to the trailer, trying to get more life out of it (it's painted, not galvanized). It has the rollers.

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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kurt
1st Mate

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27 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 15:24:01

I have a 1986 C-25 with the inboard diesel and I love it. My wife and I with 18 mouth old were new to ocean sailing when we bought our C-25, the inboard is really nice, my thoughts. One of our first days we were tacking and lost the jib sheet it went flying and flapping widely I just reached down, pushed the starter and headed up wind regained control built a little confidence. Also learning to sail on the ocean during my first summer at times when the seas are rolling I’ve left the diesel running so I’d be ready to drop sail (call me a loser). I get great mileage about 14 gallons season. Next summer I’m burning bio-diesel smells like French fries. I have a nice large locker free were outboard gas would go. Being on a mooring it’s a good way to recharge the batteries Lastly I feel very cool putting around with the wet exhaust with all the other big boys all having inboards.
There are some negatives, its noisy and it takes up room in the boat. Can catch lobster traps and that means swimming that not always a good time in chilly Maine waters and I’ve done it. It is hard to work on, although I’ve removed my stairs so my daughter can crawl out of the cabin. I had a fuel tank leak and there was smell it took three weeks to leave the boat.
All in all I’m glad to have it.

Kurt
Snowfish
86 C-25 FK/SR

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John Mason
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2003 : 17:10:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>(call me a loser) <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

We'll just call you cautious . . . and that's not a bad thing!

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

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