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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2014 : 20:06:15

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by csmcg
 My boat came with a 15hp Honda that will not pivot on it’s bracket within the confines of the starboard transom gap, so no thrust vectoring.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just curious, what vintage Honda 15? Our ~1999 model (square cowling) just barely clears (~1/8" clearance on each side with the tiller up). But I have to place the motor in EXACTLY the right place.

Edited by - on

zeil
Master Marine Consultant

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Canada
1314 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2014 : 20:36:58

Wow... a very good, inclusive and comprehensive review!! Thank you csmcg

Together with some images could this be Mainsheet material and/or Good Old Boat review stuff?

Edited by - on

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2014 : 22:02:24

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by csmcg
 My boat came with a 15hp Honda that will not pivot on it’s bracket within the confines of the starboard transom gap, so no thrust vectoring.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Just curious, what vintage Honda 15? Our ~1999 model (square cowling) just barely clears (~1/8" clearance on each side with the tiller up). But I have to place the motor in EXACTLY the right place.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hello Rick,

Same here. Square cowling, just barely fits. Hull #487. I think the motor is 2000.

Regards.

Edited by - on

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 01/22/2014 : 22:10:43

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by zeil
 

Wow... a very good, inclusive and comprehensive review!! Thank you csmcg

Together with some images could this be Mainsheet material and/or Good Old Boat review stuff?

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thank you for the kind words. Really just a stream of babble off the top. If it would help, I could clean it up. No shortage of pictures.

Anything where you disagreed? It would be my clue to look into things more closely.

I forgot to mention the sensitivity to fore/aft balance with regards to making the forward hatch/anchor locker and the cabin hatch drain system work correctly.

Regards

Edited by - csmcg on 01/22/2014 22:26:43

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2014 : 04:38:31

csmcg, We added a riding sail to JD, made it from the kit by [url="http://www.sailrite.com/Anchor-Riding-Sail-Kit-12-5-Sq-Feet#.UuD-4xAo6t8"]SailRite[/url].

Boat still swings at anchor but much less.

Paul

Edited by - on

gottoaz
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2014 : 09:52:44

csmcg, take a bow, you nailed the 250wk. I have had my 06WK #875 for about a year and a half and agree with your assessment 100%. The only thing I could offer to SailAway is MHO on tow vehicles. I have a 2007 4x4 Ford SporTrac, and it is undersized for pulling the 250wk. I suspect it is undersized for the wb, but I would put it about equal to the Toyota I believe SailAway has. I paid to have the 250 I purchased in Minnesota brought to central AZ ($2300), and then I later trailered her to Havasu for the 2013 convention. It had snowed overnight the day before I left and I made what was probably a bad decision to cross the snow covered pass down into Phoenix. In fact there were no incidents, but there is no doubt in my mind I would have been in deep trouble if anything had required my reaction and correction. You need a bigger truck to haul this boat and I believe the three or four thousand it would take to purchase a well maintained used Suburban would be worth the cost. Keep your Toyota and license the Suburban for a recreational vehicle and you may be able to get the wing keel which provides a little more headroom and comfort for your family.

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SailAway
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2014 : 11:01:23

Csmcg - I agree with the others, great write up! I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. As far as a tow vehicle, I have access to an F250 for my trips to the Great Lakes. Other than that, the only time I would use the Toyota would be to launch and retrieve the boat at my local lake (Carlyle, Il). It's about a 150 ft trip from the ramp to my boat parking space. If that's too much for the toyota, the club has a vehicle I could use. The Suburban is a good idea too!
Some people refer to my lake as a flooded parking lot because it is so shallow. There have been times that I've had to crank the keel up on my C22 to get unstuck. So, I think I'll stick with the water ballast over the wing keel.
Greg

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2014 : 18:55:31

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by csmcg
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 Just curious, what vintage Honda 15? Our ~1999 model (square cowling) just barely clears (~1/8" clearance on each side with the tiller up). But I have to place the motor in EXACTLY the right place.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hello Rick,

Same here. Square cowling, just barely fits. Hull #487. I think the motor is 2000.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
If you're interested in pivoting the motor, you might try moving it a bit to starboard on the transom. I found a "sweet spot" where it just clears on both sides.

I also installed a hard link to improve slow speed maneuverability. Scroll about halfway down on [url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=20807&whichpage=3"]this page[/url] to see a detailed description.

<center>

</center>

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csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 01/23/2014 : 23:06:20

TakeFive, nice mod. I will take another look at our outboard position to see if I can replicate your setup.

Brit, I am glad to hear that the sailright option was effective. Did you do the kit? How hard was assembly?

SailAway, I hope the writeup was helpful in some way. I did not intend to declare the wing better than the water ballast. For sailing in consistently skinney water, a water ballast 250 with a kick-up rudder would seem ideal.

Gottoaz, good advice on tow vehicles. We tow with a 3/4 ton diesel rated at 12,000lbs but a lighter weight boat (water ballast) with much lower towing requirements is certainly tempting. Launching and retrieval would be so much simpler as well.

I wanted a wing due to several factors that are products of our living situation. 1) We generally will launch and retrieve once a year, but have the option to travel occassionaly. 2) Standing at 5'2-ish, all three ladies in my life would have standing headroom. 3) Fewer mechanical systems (fewer modes of failure).

I am glad that configuration options exist. For example: Doing the ICW, I would imagine that a water ballast 250 would allow for more exploration and less stressing over wandering out of the channel.

SailAway, I wish you luck in your search. Updates and pictures required!

Regards

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 04:20:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by csmcg
 TakeFive, nice mod. I will take another look at our outboard position to see if I can replicate your setup.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I forgot to mention that the shift lever does rub the starboard side ever so slightly when in forward, but not enough to kick it out of gear.
[/hijack]

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Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 08:16:10

I recall several 250s with a small fixed bracket on the transom to move the outboard out of that little opening, allowing sharper turns. Didn't Catalina even offer that as an option on the 250? Like this...

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/24/2014 08:21:43

SailAway
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 13:54:48

csmcg - your write up was a great help! Even though my original post was a request for issues to look out for, I cherish every bit of information I can get about the C250. Here are some key points I got out of your post...

When looking at a boat, I should spend lots of time crawling through every inch of it to find every flaw
Make about 30 laps around the outside to do the same
Check the hull finish for blemishes
Check the bottom paint condition
Check for signs of impact or structural damage
Check every inch of deck, fittings, lockers, etc.
Make sure the winch/self-tailers are in good working condition
Check the galley to make sure it is in good working order
Come to the conclusion that these boats are simple and easy to maintain/operate
Verify that the laws of physics apply to the inside of the boat and that gravity works properly in the head
Evaluate the rudder, is it version 1, 2, 3, kick-up, etc.
Motor clearance on the transom might be an issue
A 135 genoa sounds like a great idea but it is generally too much sail for these boats
Traveler (if it has one) can be difficult to adjust
Mast bend is difficult to achieve
Lines are not led aft and I might need to take a gymnastics class
Boat sails back and forth on a mooring, probably the same at anchor

Greg

Edited by - on

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 15:08:19

Greg, Mast bend is easy to set if you follow the owners manual. I am 71 and my lines lead aft to the cockpit but in no particular routing. Whatever works to your satisfaction. Cam cleats, position of winches help, but I don't crawl up on the cabin top to adjust sails etc.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 15:31:11

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 I recall several 250s with a small fixed bracket on the transom to move the outboard out of that little opening, allowing sharper turns. Didn't Catalina even offer that as an option on the 250? Like this...

<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Dave,

csmcg mentioned that adding a bracket causes the bow to ride high, which on our boats causes the foredeck hatch to leak. The boat needs to be on her lines for rainwater to drain through the gutters forward into the anchor locker. Otherwise it works its way inside no matter how good your gasket is.

So adding a bracket means adding a couple hundred pounds of additional ballast to the bow.

Edited by - on

Stinkpotter
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
9080 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 19:17:28

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by TakeFive
 
Dave,

csmcg mentioned that adding a bracket causes the bow to ride high, which on our boats causes the foredeck hatch to leak. The boat needs to be on her lines for rainwater to drain through the gutters forward into the anchor locker. Otherwise it works its way inside no matter how good your gasket is.

So adding a bracket means adding a couple hundred pounds of additional ballast to the bow.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll buy that it changes the balance somewhat, but I think that math overstates it. Moving an existing 100 lbs. one foot aft on a 25' 4,000 lb. boat with a broad beam aft, should not require 200 lbs. of new weight a roughly equal distance forward of its center of buoyancy, in the pointy part, to balance it. I suspect it would be an easy adjustment if turning space is desired. I could be wrong, but I think John Russell has a bracket on his C-250 WK.

Edited by - Stinkpotter on 01/24/2014 19:38:57

bear
Admiral

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USA
909 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 20:43:16

Arlyn, Didn't you write a while back that you or somebody figured 2 degrees aft is the optium for proper drainage? Keeping the scuppers clean is important too. Brandy sets 5 months in the water and I've never had the front hatch/ mattress show signs of drainage.

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 01/24/2014 : 23:38:42

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Stinkpotter
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">I'll buy that it changes the balance somewhat, but I think that math overstates it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Sloppy writing on my part. I was in a hurry, and did not calculations to support my statement. You are right, 200 lb probably way overcompensates. And the balance may be different for WK vs. WB. I have observed, as a rule, that the WK will usually ride bow high unless you add some ballast up front.

Fore-aft pitch is very important on our boats because the foredeck drainage is not designed to accommodate a high bow. And a low bow will cause the companionway hatch to drain into the cabin.

Edited by - on

gottoaz
Deckhand

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7 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2014 : 13:24:58

view of CCCCIQUE in EVwash
shows position of motor bracket

CCCCIQUE motor bracket
250 WK hydraulic motor bracket out of the water and in the RV wash
I can see where the lack of rotation on the motor would be a problem, since rudder steering in slips and marinas can be an issue at low speeds. The hydraulic bracket shown allows full range of movement, easily brings the motor up and locked out of the water, and does not seem to change weight distribution much more than a person in the catbird seat. I have had no issues with hatch leakage after a year in the slip, but it has been a very dry year!

Edited by - on

csmcg
1st Mate

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96 Posts

Response Posted - 01/26/2014 : 18:56:26

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by gottoaz
The hydraulic bracket shown allows full range of movement, easily brings the motor up and locked out of the water, and does not seem to change weight distribution much more than a person in the catbird seat. I have had no issues with hatch leakage after a year in the slip, but it has been a very dry year!
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Nice setup!

I didn't mean to imply to anyone that mounting a motor bracket would knock my boat (or any 250) off it's lines. I meant to convey that I am careful about adding or moving weight aft.

Bear, as to mast bend, I have followed the rig tuning instructions to the best of my ability and had difficulty getting the specified amount of mast bend via tension on the uppers. Using a 'B' Loos gauge, I reach 15% load on the uppers before I can get 1.5 inches of bend. I have searched through the forum and archives, reading others results and processes. Lastly, I read Arlyn's tuning guide: http://pages.suddenlink.net/arlyn/sailing/tuning.html. Unloaded, the mast is straight and true.

Any suggestions?

Regards

Edited by - csmcg on 01/26/2014 19:20:26

SailAway
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 12:11:53

I've been lusting over a C250 in the Chicago area and I don't know that it's even available any more.
http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/38750
I do have a question about it though. It has a permanently mounted head vs a porta pottie. I do not have access to a pump out station so is there an alternate way to purge the holding tank?
Greg

Edited by - on

CJRoxs
Navigator

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USA
114 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 17:21:34

Yea, but it's a s%#*&y undertaking.

Sorry, I couldn't,'t help myself. Seriously, there are only 2 ways I know of. First is illegal and unethical so that's enough said about that choice. The second would be to pump it out into a portable tank of some sort. Not something I would want to have to do.

Maybe someone else has a different idea but without a pump out station I think I would keep looking.

Edited by - on

DavidCrosby
Navigator

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USA
240 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 17:35:48

Greg,

West Access Marina has pump out facilities. You could just plan on visiting them every so often.

Also, FYI, there is a C250 wb sitting on the parking lot at West Access. It has not been in the water in a few years. I do not know the story, but it might be worth checking with marina management.

Edited by - on

SailAway
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 18:28:23

David - thanks, thats a good idea. I believe Boulder has one too. I have a friend at Boulder who I could pay a visit to and take care of "business" while I'm there. When I make my yearly trip to the Great Lakes, I'm sure there will be marinas with pump out stations available. If it gets to be too much trouble, I guess I could just remove it and put in a porta pottie?
I will definitely check out the one at West Access.
Greg

Edited by - on

mowrangler
1st Mate

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USA
66 Posts

Response Posted - 01/29/2014 : 21:04:45

Mine has the porta-potty, so take this for what it is worth, but unless you are doing a lot of business I'd think it would take a while to fill the holding tank.

Also, I'll point out that the early C250's didn't have the 15 gallon tank under the V berth, so the weight distribution on my 95 is much worse than a newer model. I have a few bags of rocks up there right now, but intend on moving the water tank up front next season. 15 gallons * 8 lbs = 120 lbs, which is roughly the amount of rocks I added to balance her out.

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SailAway
1st Mate

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USA
46 Posts

Response Posted - 01/30/2014 : 11:04:20

Mowrangler - you make an excellent point! Given the number of times we used the porta pottie on the C22, I would only need to empty the holding tank on the C250 once a season. Even then there wouldn't be much in it.

I'm curious about the 15 gallon water tank under the v-birth. What year did they start putting it there? How big of a job is it to move it there on the early models?
Greg

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