Association Forum - Adding running rigging to mast

Assn Members Area · Join

Home.

Association Forum

Ships Store

Cruising

Racing

Technical Tips

Photo Gallery - New

Boat Search - Updated

Manuals & Brochures

Swap Meet

Links

Officer Flag Line & Staff

Bylaws & Constitution

Members Area

Join the Association

Notice:
The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.

Association Forum

Username:	Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

All Forums

Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

Catalina 25 Specific Forum

Adding running rigging to mast

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Author

Topic

Page: of 2

craigacox
Deckhand

Member Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Initially Posted - 01/16/2014 : 00:09:09

We have a Catalina 25 with a standard rig. For a few reasons (e.g, topping lift, going up the mast, spare halyard), we want to add some running rigging on the mast. Here is what we are planning; we are looking for a sanity check.

At the top of one side of the mast will be a single block (e.g., Ronstan 41100) with 7/16" Sta-Set line. The other side will have a fiddle block at the top and a single block with becket at the bottom (e.g., Ronstan 51500 and 51110) with 3/8" Sta-Set. Top blocks will be attached just below the masthead with diamond pad eyes (e.g., Suncor C3703-1002) bolted through the mast. Bottom blocks or lines will attach to shroud pin rails that we will add. The pin rails are only for keeping lines out of the way and will not support loads.

We believe that this setup will work, but would like people to point out potential problems or things we haven't thought about.

Craig & Regina Cox
s/v Elsewhere
Brand's Marina
Port Clinton, OH

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 05:09:28

for going up the mastuse the main sheeves. Hopefully someone else can chime in on safety of going up on the block you show....

Edited by - on

hewebb
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
761 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 05:47:28

I added two sheaves to the mast head and replaced the single exit block with double exit blocks at the mast base. All parts were purchased from Catalina Direct. Aft sheaves are for main halyard and topping lift. Forward sheaves are for jib and a spare. All the lines are run thru deck organizers, rope clutches back to the cabin top winches. Next winter I plan to add a spinnaker crane to the masthead and the forward spare halyard will be routed through it.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 06:51:51

I'm not clear on exactly how and where you plan to install the hardware, but let's talk, first, about your reasons for wanting to add a halyard.

Do you want to use it as a spare jib halyard or mainsail halyard? If you want to use it as a spare jib halyard, it should be attached at the forward center of the mast, preferably with a masthead crane. If you want to use it as a spare main halyard, or as a topping lift, then it should be attached at the aft center of the mast. If you plan to attach it to the side of the mast, in the center, so you can use it for either a spare jib or main halyard, I think it will probably not work very well for either purpose.

In the 23 years that I owned my C25, I never needed a spare main halyard, and I only needed a spare jib halyard once, and I never had to send anyone up the mast in a bosun's chair. If I needed to do work at the top, it was easy enough to just lower the mast, do the work, and raise it up again. Usually I was able to defer work at the masthead until the end of the season, when I lowered the mast for the winter. The only reason you would be likely to use a spare jib halyard very often is if you fly a spinnaker. If you want to use it as a spare jib halyard, my suggestion is to rig it with a masthead crane, so that, if you or a subsequent owner wants to fly a spinnaker, the halliard will work for that purpose.

7/16" line is heavier than you need for a halyard. 3/8" should be sufficient. Also, for use as a topping lift, it's major overkill. There are very easy, functional ways to set up a topping lift. The topping lift only carries the weight of the boom and sail, so a small line diameter is sufficient. Depending on how you plan to use the topping lift, you can use either a very stretchy line or a non stretchy line.

I'm not sure what the purpose of the fiddle block is, but I suspect it's purpose is to add mechanical advantage when raising a person in a bosun's chair. If that's so, it's unnecessary to add mechanical advantage in that way. A bosun's chair should be raised on a halyard that is led aft to a winch. The winch provides the needed mechanical advantage, and, by wrapping the line around it, you can hold the line, or put it in a cleat, to hold the line securely while the person in the chair works at the top of the mast. The halyard should not be simply held in someone's hands while the work is being done. It needs to be secured.

I apologize if you have already considered and resolved these issues, but, since I'm unclear about your plan, I am discussing them FWIW.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 06:56:22

For the topping lift, simply attached a line to the aft clevis on the masthead that extends to about 2-3 feet above the end of the boom. Attached a single block on the end of this line then use another line to complete the topping lift setup.

For going up the mast, use one of the two existing halyards, as you probably wouldn't climb the mast with both sails deployed anyway.

As to having a spare halyard, I don't see any value in it and it adds unnecessary weight aloft. If I'm envisioning your set up correctly, the pad eye will be mounted several inches below the masthead and a block will then hang from it a few inches even lower. As a spare halyard, you might not get a full hoist of the sails, and the pull would be off center.

Other thoughts...

3/8" for a halyard is kind of large and adds weight.

If I were to go aloft, which I haven't done in all of my sailing career, I'm not sure I'd trust a single block hanging from the side of the mast over a halyard that goes over the existing masthead sheaves.

The additional hardware and lines on the masthead add more weight.

Edited by - on

Steve Milby
Past Commodore

Members Avatar

USA
5902 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 08:20:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by dlucier3/8" for a halyard is kind of large and adds weight. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Don is right. Nowadays I think 1/4" halyards are generally recommended.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 08:30:28

More lines, and especially externally-mounted hardware, means more noise as they slap against the mast. Even though the lower hardware will normally be attached to the pinrails you mentioned, the upper blocks will hit the mast as the rig flexes while you're sailing (or even under high winds while the boat is parked). Hardware hitting the mast will also wear through the protective layer of anodization and gradually scratch deeper into the aluminum. The lines will also be almost continuously be slapping the spreaders.

Putting all of the lines inside the mast is significantly more work, initially, but it will be a far superior result over the long run. As was mentioned above, it's easy to double-up the sheaves at the truck, and installing exit plates near the base of the mast is not difficult. For a few pictures to stimulate your own creativity, consider:

http://panza.smugmug.com/MYSAILBOAT/The-Boat-Renovation/Mast-Modifications/21650162_bHQXBG

If you do proceed with mounting anything on the outside of the mast, search the forum for discussions that have considered tappped machine screws vs. sheetmetal screws. If you go with sheetmetal screws anyway keep in mind that the metal used for the mast is relatively strong, so you need to drill pilot holes that are nearly as large as the OD of the screws: they won't cut very deeply into the surrounding metal and they'll break off (in the hole) when you add too much force in trying to drive them into undersized holes.

Hope this is helpful: good luck with this project, and I'm sure we'd enjoy seeing the results here when you're done.

Edited by - on

Tomas Kruska
Admiral

Members Avatar

Czech Republic
522 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 08:49:46

Lee, respect! This is serious project you have done on the mast. Great documentation.

PS: What is that 4blade propeller you have on Tohatsu 9.8? Better than the stock 3blade?

Edited by - Tomas Kruska on 01/16/2014 08:54:48

craigacox
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 09:38:29

Thanks, everyone, for the great responses. I certainly concede all the points on the disadvantages of the modification, and admit that there are easier ways to do each of the individual things I mentioned. Part of this exercise is learning to make safe small modifications, even if there may be a better way to do individual tasks.

Steve, you are right; the purpose of the fiddle block is to give mechanical advantage for going up the mast. While I will never need to go up the mast alone in this boat, I want to learn how and be comfortable with it in this controlled environment. This is our learning boat so we are willing to add equipment that we don't need in order to learn how to use it for a planned future boat.

Lee, you brought up a couple of good points. I was thinking about putting a small plastic plate on the mast below the attachment point where the block would hit it. Perhaps with some spacers to provide standoff from the mast itself to minimize corrosion from trapped water. That would prevent the aluminum damage. Thoughts?

In terms of the attachment point, my initial thought is to use a pad eye with four screw holes with bolts through the mast. So the port/starboard pad eyes would be the same height and the screw hole locations would be mirrored port and starboard. Both pad eyes would be secured with four bolts completely through the mast (bolt head -> pad eye -> mast -> pad eye -> nut). Plus washers, of course. That seems more secure than even tapped screws. If there were a disadvantage to the through bolts, I would use tapped screws and not sheet metal screws. Thoughts?

Thanks again, everyone, for the great feedback.

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 01/16/2014 : 18:12:18

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by craigacox
 the purpose of the fiddle block is to give mechanical advantage for going up the mast. While I will never need to go up the mast alone in this boat, I want to learn how and be comfortable with it in this controlled environment.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you are simply wanting to see if you can haul yourself up solo, you could attach your block and tackle setup to one of the existing halyards then haul it to the top of the mast.

Edited by - dlucier on 01/16/2014 18:13:42

Lee Panza
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2014 : 08:36:59

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by craigacox
 ...I was thinking about putting a small plastic plate on the mast below the attachment point where the block would hit it. Perhaps with some spacers to provide standoff from the mast itself to minimize corrosion from trapped water. That would prevent the aluminum damage. Thoughts?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

 If you add 'bash-plates' to the sides of the mast be sure to use a material that has high resistance to UV so it doesn't degrade over the years. You won't be able to inspect it regularly (unless you drop or ascend the mast often). For attaching low-load items like this you might consider pop-rivets, but be sure to get the ones that are all aluminum.

 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">In terms of the attachment point, my initial thought is to use a pad eye with four screw holes with bolts through the mast. So the port/starboard pad eyes would be the same height and the screw hole locations would be mirrored port and starboard. Both pad eyes would be secured with four bolts completely through the mast (bolt head -> pad eye -> mast -> pad eye -> nut).
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

 Through-bolting tends to squeeze the mast, and four bolts might significantly deform it by the time you tighten them enough to be really secure. If you do this near the top of the mast I'd suggest taking the truck off and inserting short lengths of aluminum tubing around each of the bolts as compression posts (as was done by the factory where the spreaders are through-bolted). Be sure to use Nylocks or at least a thread-locker compound.

All in all, this seems like a lot of work for questionable results, although it'll be an interesting project. Keep in mind that halyards attached to the sides of the mast will require whatever gets hauled aloft to be maneuvered around the spreaders. Using the main or jib halyard avoids this complication. If you do eventually go to internal halyards you'll probably need to remove these through-bolted padeyes because the through-bolts would interfere with stringing things up through the interior.

One more thing: stainless steel promotes corrosion where it contacts aluminum, so use something like Tef-Gel wherever the two metals are in contact. This is important even in a fresh-water environment, but it's absolutely essential when the boat lives in (or someday gets moved to) a salt-water environment.

I'm glad you're giving this so much thought in advance; one can always remove things and change them, but the holes in the mast remain. I've had to revise my plans for my own improvements where holes from a PO's 'improvements' interfered with or were too close to holes I had intended to cut or drill for my own intentions.

Again, good luck with this. Please post pix of the results.

Edited by - on

Lee Panza
Captain

Members Avatar

USA
468 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2014 : 08:54:50

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by craigacox
 ...This is our learning boat so we are willing to add equipment that we don't need in order to learn how to use it for a planned future boat.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
 Please don't lose sight of the consideration that these Cat-25's are worthy boats that will probably continue to be renovated and have their lives extended for many generations of future owners. It's unfortunate when someone alters one with poorly conceived or executed 'improvements' that a subsequent owner has to contend with. I've encountered a few such situations, and we've read similar experiences from others on this forum. Think the project through carefully before cutting things or drilling holes.

On the other tack, don't let that prevent you from doing anything at all. A large part of the satisfaction of owning a boat comes from improving it, and some of us find this aspect of boat ownership at least as enjoyable as actually sailing it. I'm just encouraging you to plan carefully beforehand, as you seem to be doing. Personally, I find the planning to be at least as enjoyable as actually implementing my plans.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 01/17/2014 : 15:54:02

7/16" is huge line for anything on a Catalina 25.

If you want more halyards I would make the two existing halyards internal and then you have 4 masthead sheaves for 4 halyards (instead of only 2). I don't think that you can really put a functional halyard anywhere on the mast that isn't in the masthead.

I found it a lot faster to climb the mast then to drop the stick on my C25 (which had the tall mast). Additionally it is hard to find room to drop the stick in a crowded marina.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

2402 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2014 : 08:04:10

Craig everyone is *** footing around. These are bad ideas, don't do them.
There are aftermarket devices for climbing a mast if you don't want to use the traditional winch tailer person.
The mast head has a place for a second jib halyard already. I am removing my second jib halyard this spring because it is pointless with my CDI furler.
Don explained the topping lift, that is how it should be done unless you want it lead back on the cabin top but neither method needs hardware on the mast other than a block for the TL if it is lead back and it will fit to what is on the mast head already.
When someone buys a boat and sees pointless mods especially to the mast it is clear that the Previous Owner (PO) made poor choices abut the maintenance to the boat and makes a person wonder what other "odd" things they will find o the boat. It is hard to not plan all kinds of projects over the winter; especially if it is a new boat. The best advise is to get to know your boat first, 6000 C-25s owned by at least 20,000 sailors and none have ever screwed up the mast with the hardware you are considering.
The number one upgrade to a mast is a halyard plate/mast plate at the bottom, do you have one of those?
We will happily help you put your own flourish to proven upgrades but really advise against projects that degrade the boat itself. What year is your boat? You may have plenty to do just doing upgrades that occurred over the production life of the model.

Welcome to the forum and please stick around even if you hear some advice you don't like.

Edited by - on

ct95949
Captain

Members Avatar

Aruba
300 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2014 : 08:58:28

Hi Craig,
One of the best rigging items I added to my mast and boom was lazy jacks. Very simple and inexpensive and best of all I was able to use existing pad eyes. The only holes I made were for a small cam cleat on the boom. I used 3/16" line for this, most of my lines were 1/4" except for a 3/8" mainsheet to save my hands. It was so nice to have the main sail drop into a neat stack on the boom instead of all over the cabin top.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2014 : 10:31:17

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 Craig everyone is *** footing around. These are bad ideas, don't do them.
There are aftermarket devices for climbing a mast if you don't want to use the traditional winch tailer person.
The mast head has a place for a second jib halyard already. I am removing my second jib halyard this spring because it is pointless with my CDI furler.
Don explained the topping lift, that is how it should be done unless you want it lead back on the cabin top but neither method needs hardware on the mast other than a block for the TL if it is lead back and it will fit to what is on the mast head already.
When someone buys a boat and sees pointless mods especially to the mast it is clear that the Previous Owner (PO) made poor choices abut the maintenance to the boat and makes a person wonder what other "odd" things they will find o the boat. It is hard to not plan all kinds of projects over the winter; especially if it is a new boat. The best advise is to get to know your boat first, 6000 C-25s owned by at least 20,000 sailors and none have ever screwed up the mast with the hardware you are considering.
The number one upgrade to a mast is a halyard plate/mast plate at the bottom, do you have one of those?
We will happily help you put your own flourish to proven upgrades but really advise against projects that degrade the boat itself. What year is your boat? You may have plenty to do just doing upgrades that occurred over the production life of the model.

Welcome to the forum and please stick around even if you hear some advice you don't like.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'm with Frank! Get to know your boat before making too any major upgrades. I was given the same advice and I'm glad I listened. There were a couple of things I was just positive I wanted to add to my boat after a couple months of ownership but I waited. 7-1/2 (or is it 6-1/2) years later I haven't missed the things I didn't do. Turned out I didn't need those upgrades after all.

Edited by - GaryB on 01/18/2014 10:31:36

craigacox
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 01/18/2014 : 11:07:39

Thanks, everyone, for the frank inputs. The arguments against the mod fall into two categories: it is not necessary, and it is detrimental. I can't argue about the necessity; there are certainly easier ways to implement a topping lift, go up the mast alone, etc. In the end, it may be that I decide not to go ahead with the mod simply because there are easier ways to do what I want to do. Frank's suggestion to “get to know your boat first” is relevant here.

I am unconvinced, however, about the extent of the detriment that would result. The only permanent parts of the mod would be two pad-eyes near the top of the mast. Even the pad-eyes could be removed, if desired. Which lessens the permanent harm to the holes possibly being too close to other holes that a future owner might want to drill, a point which Lee makes (and I concede). If there are other harms that I am not seeing, though, they may be enough to swing the balance.

Even if I decide not to do this, I am interested in getting feedback which will help with understanding and analysis of future projects. If I decide to move ahead, I have already thought of some things I will do differently based on your inputs. Thanks!

Edited by - on

LVjimmy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

26 Posts

Response Posted - 02/09/2014 : 18:26:12

Not meaning to hijack the thread but I have a question on a similar topic. I need to replace the halyard that I use for my jib, its about 20 feet short of reaching the cockpit. I'm new to sailing and know nothing about lines. The OD of the line I am replacing is 1/2" from previous posts that seems to be very large, should I be using something smaller or am I measuring the line incorrectly? I was going to go with "New England Rope" to keep the line colors the same. Does anyone have any pros or cons with "New England rope"?

Edited by - on

Ape-X
Admiral

Members Avatar

USA
662 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2014 : 04:50:26

LBJimmy: Line size should match your halyard sheaves, and I am guessing that 1/2" is oversized for your current sheave. Others can chime in with the recommended/typical size or look at CatalinaDirect for a replacment size/length. Replacement is easy, splice a temporary messenger line, pull the old line leaving the messenger in place. Then you can accuratly measure the length needed: alternately simply splice the new line pulling it into position with the old line. Many drop the mast and inspect the hardware befor replacement. New Englad Rope is good.

Edited by - on

OLarryR
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
3467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2014 : 10:47:53

Agree with many of the comments to rethink doing some or all of the intended mods to the mast running rigging. I know when I purchased my boat, I started compiling a list of all the things I wanted or felt I needed to do. Of course, I added to that list partially because of addl things that perhaps needed attention but also because it is sort of a hobby as much as it is a sport and I enjoy working improvements. I think the first thing is to start with a list and prioritize the items based on cost, necessity and/or want. First on my list was a new outboard and changing out the original motor bracket which was initially intended for the 2-stroke lighter outboards that existed when the Catalina was new. I wanted to buy a Hnda and that was better matched with a 4-spring motor mount. Then there was the issue of paying $20/month for shore power vs installing a solar panel with an electronic controller. Both of those items on my list were accomplished in the first 4 months I owned the boat between October '05 and Jan '06. My anchor light was OOC and so that was the third project replacing it with an LED anchor light/housing with a photo-diode for turning it off as soon as the sun came up. Replacing all the running rigging was accom;lished the first summer along with maintenance to the winches.

In regards to installing a nother halyard for the reasons you mentioned and to gain experience for a larger boat, I agree with frank as to the other options to explore. I have a "Mast Mate" which utilizes either the Jib or main halyard (I use the jib halyard) and basically threads up the mast groove webbed steps for climbing. It comes with a safety harness that fits around the mast and your body. But the reality of the situation is that can go up and do maintenance at the spreader/steaming light height but above that, I start getting the willies and so even if you install a halyard with mechanical advantage for hoisting a bosuns chair, the fact is that you may not want to ever make that trip to the top. Another project that I procrastinated for a long time was changing out the standing rigging but I had that accomplished last winter/spring. I had Atlantic Riggers out of Annapolis come down to my boat and install the rigging. The guy had no problem at all using my main halyard and hoisting himself up several times to accomplishe the job. As far as experience with larger boats go, there are some larger sailboats in my marina that have the mast steps permanently attached to the mast. So, I do not see that installing an extra halyard is really necessary especially when it appears that one can hoist up using the existing halyards fairly easy (well the rigger was no heavy weight so that may make a difference). But the scare factor does kick in above the steaming light and so, if you can buy a larger boat, recommend have a rigger do what is necessary topsides. the thing is that there if you have a list of projects, there probably are more important things that would have to be done but I am only guessing. I am not familiar with your boat and perhaps it is in great shape with no other work or improvements to be made. By the way, another project that many of the older Cats wind up having done is replacing the switch panel or adding an additional one. Then adding fans and accessory 12V plugs for added electronic accessory convenience.

New sails also finds it's way onto the project list as any sail over 8 years old, and many have sails over 12-15 years old were probably blown out years ago.

I know you wer eonly inquiring regarding your project(s) at hand but seeing how a number of people have questioned the need, it begs the question as to what else is on the list or should be on your list for an improvement.

Edited by - on

awetmore
Master Marine Consultant

Members Avatar

USA
1144 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2014 : 14:30:33

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by LVjimmy
 I need to replace the halyard that I use for my jib, its about 20 feet short of reaching the cockpit. I'm new to sailing and know nothing about lines. The OD of the line I am replacing is 1/2" from previous posts that seems to be very large, should I be using something smaller or am I measuring the line incorrectly? I was going to go with "New England Rope" to keep the line colors the same. Does anyone have any pros or cons with "New England rope"?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

New England Rope is a manufacturer. They make line that would be utter junk for this purpose, to stuff that makes good sense, to complete overkill lines.

On a Catalina 25 5/16" is a good size for halyards and New England Rope Sta-Set X is a good line. Sta-Set is an acceptable line, but the "X" version has much less stretch.

Edited by - on

LVjimmy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

26 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2014 : 18:04:33

Thank you for the help. I thought 1/2" was a bit large.

Edited by - on

Merit 25
Deckhand

Members Avatar

13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/10/2014 : 20:37:13

I'm a New England ropes dealer. And yes, sta-set X was a good line, but VPC is a better one for not a whole lot more. Vectran has a lot less creep and stretch than even parallel core dacron. Sta-set X is very stiff and that's the downside of a parallel core construction.

As for the original post, if you want to add the weight and expense of those pad eyes you have two real options. One is through bolting it. You'll need a compression sleeve for tightening, otherwise there's a good chance of deforming the mast from the bolts.

The other option would be to use machine screws. You'll need to drill and tap into the mast and use machine screws to install the pad eye. Do not use self tapping screws. Do not use rivets, you can't see how secure they are on the other side.

In either case, it's good practice never to trust a block to go up on. If you have a choice, always go up on a halyard that is internal. That way if the sheeve fails, you don't die. If one of those ronstan blocks lets go, or it's shackle, or the machine screws, then you die. Go up on a halyard that's inside the mast, and you live.

For rigging inspections I use a harness (not a chair) and 2 ascenders on a climbing rope I hoist with the main halyard. It's easy to get up, and easy enough to get down.

I wouldn't add any weight to the top of the mast, it's the worst place to add weight on a sailboat.

Edited by - on

craigacox
Deckhand

Members Avatar

USA
5 Posts

Response Posted - 02/11/2014 : 19:57:40

Thanks, Merit. I go back and forth on whether to do this, and how. It seems simple and reasonable to me, but I want to understand and be able to evaluate the objections I have seen.

Although we have external halyards, I concede the wisdom of going up on a line that loops over the top of the mast. When I go up, I want one line on the chair, and a separate safety line on the harness. Both halyards are 7/16 (or 1/2) line spliced to a thinner, synthetic, grey line (Vectran?) that attaches to the shackle. The larger line is much heavier than the thinner line, so although we haven't let go of the shackle yet, it's a matter of time before we do and it shoots to the top of the mast. Once that happens, I won't have a safety line to go get it. That is one reason I am still considering this. Another reason: while I understand that blocks can fail, I am also uncomfortable going up solely on a splice between lines of such different sizes.

If I do this, I am gravitating toward a single cheek block instead of a pad eye and separate block. Weight would be a few ounces plus weight of the line. Based on previous posts I am moving away from through bolts, and toward drilling/tapping for machine screws.

I suppose I could get even more lines aloft by converting to all-line (non-spliced) internal halyards but using smaller diameter line and keeping the dual sheaves. That would give two halyards and two extra lines, each with the safety of running over the top. That is probably a better solution, but a lot more work with the mast up. I don't really want to drop the mast this winter, but if it is an obviously superior solution, maybe I need to think about it some more. Anyone see issues with this?

Edited by - on

Merit 25
Deckhand

Members Avatar

13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/12/2014 : 06:29:40

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by craigacox
 When I go up, I want one line on the chair, and a separate safety line on the harness. Both halyards are 7/16 (or 1/2) line spliced to a thinner, synthetic, grey line (Vectran?) that attaches to the shackle.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
This is becoming more of a common practice. Basically re-creating a wire halyard, the grey part is probably Dyneema (aka spectra). And I would be very concerned with how the splice was made. Dyneema requires a longer bury length than Dacron, and going from a very thing line to a very thick line is not easy. I try to keep it within 2 sizes from one size to the other. I'm doing the same thing on a 40+foot catamaran for cost reasons. The working part will be 1/4" SK78 dyneema and the tail will be 3/8" sta-set. I can't imagine saving a lot of coin doing it on a 25 footer, especially after paying someone to splice it. (which leads me to believe the previous owner did it, hence my concerns) An end for end load bearing splice with cover is not on the "easy" end of the spectrum.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Once that happens, I won't have a safety line to go get it. That is one reason I am still considering this. Another reason: while I understand that blocks can fail, I am also uncomfortable going up solely on a splice between lines of such different sizes.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If you do decide to use a cheek block, drill and tap, and install a messenger line for everyday use. Then install a line to climb the rig when you need it. Keeps UV and weight down. No reason to go up the rig while sailing, doesn't sound like you have enough strings in the mast for that kinda thing anyway.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I suppose I could get even more lines aloft by converting to all-line (non-spliced) internal halyards but using smaller diameter line and keeping the dual sheaves. That would give two halyards and two extra lines, each with the safety of running over the top. That is probably a better solution<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

This is what I would do. Keep the dual sheaves, change to line a much more appropriate size for a 25 footer. I use 1/4" halyards on my 25 footer, and most people like 5/16" for ease of handling/cost. If you wanted to go to 1/4" I'd suggest stepping up to a hi-modulus line.

Let me know if I can be of more help.

Edited by - on

LVjimmy
1st Mate

Members Avatar

26 Posts

Response Posted - 03/02/2014 : 10:08:13

Went with 90' of 3/8" VPC. No problem installing it. Thanks for the help.

Edited by - on

Page: of 2

Topic

New Topic

Topic Locked

Printer Friendly

Jump To:

Association Forum

Notice: The advice given on this site is based upon individual or quoted experience, yours may differ.
The Officers, Staff and members of this site only provide information based upon the concept that anyone utilizing this information does so at their own risk and holds harmless all contributors to this site.