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Glogner
Deckhand

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Austria
16 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/17/2003 : 10:31:51

I plan to install two Lewmar ST 16 Winches on the coamings and like to get rid of the blocks Catalina installed in order to change the line dirction to the roof mounted winches.
Has anyone done this? My interest would be if the 150% genoa sheed touches the gelcoat in front of the winch. In this case I would have to install the winch in an angel.

Best regards from Austria

Dietmar Glogner
ALLIS Catalina 250WB Hull 185

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2003 : 11:33:54

I have done this here are some pictures

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df05b3127cce93a99fbf88db0000001610" border=0>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc31b3127cce943e1b32772c0000001610" border=0>

I'm on my way to the marina. I will take some other pics. There is a stanchion-mounted block that I don't have a clear picture of.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/17/2003 : 13:52:25

Dietmar, if the Genoa is a light air sail, then the approach that Ullman Sails uses for the 155% reacher/drifter is to cut the foot high aft and set the clew so that the sheets lead towards the stern stanchion post. Then the sheet comes back forward to the winch.

If a full weight Genoa, Bryan's approach would be better if the clew angle will work.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2003 : 23:50:42

More pictures of the coaming winches. The stanchion-mounted blocks are set so the jib sheets do not rub the gel coat. The only change I'm looking at is to make the winches taller with the winch blocks West Marine sells, or to add something in front of the winch to change the sheet angle.
If you are not careful when sheeting the jib during a tack the sheet will cross it self on the winch. This is due too the angle of the sheet coming from the stanchion-mounted blocks.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc39b3127cce94f5f27113f40000001610" border=0>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc39b3127cce94f5f27f13fa0000001610" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Glogner
Deckhand

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Austria
16 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 05:19:55

Dear Arlyn!

I use the standard Sails from Catalina.
Dear Bryan! My C205WB has roof mounted (110%) and a side mounted rail (150%) for the block car. Before I do the modification I have to simulate the setup on my boat I think. I can not access it as it is stored in a barn.

Thank you both for the help.

best regards Dietmar

Edited by - on

marzluff
Deckhand

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USA
23 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 06:28:28

Looks like a great way to facilitate single handing. What sort of backing plate did you use?

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 09:38:55

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Looks like a great way to facilitate single handing. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

That is why it was done. With the wheel steering it was hard to single hand with self-tailing winches on the cabin top.

In Feb 2002 we had the boat out of the water and at the dealer (there were some warranty items that needed to be fixed) I had them install the winches & do a bottom job. The winches are installed over the front part of the coaming compartment and the nuts are accessible from there. The dealer has installed them on a couple other c250's before mine. They are installed as per the factory cabin top winches. Same hardware and winches.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 11:37:15

what a great idea. What type/make blocks did you use on the stanchions?

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 17:46:45

I tackled the sheet problem a little differently. It may be more of an issue using the 110 headsail rolled up very far, the cars need to be fully forward and the angle that Bryan has may not clear the cabin top. I used a rub rail to keep the sheets off the deck. It is likely however that my lead angle on the winch is slightly higher and more prone to overides. It is necessary to hold a hand on the sheet as its winched. Both the rub rail and the block that Bryan used could be used which would allow the block to be placed lower on the stanchion and solve the lead angle problems to the winch. This might be easier than using angle blocks under the winch and would allow the jib cars to be used fully forward. The rub rail may need to be slightly longer than I have mine or set towards the beam of the boat if run to a block on the stanchion

http://stewartfam.net/arlyn/coamingwinch.html

<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/P0000074.JPG" border=0>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 23:10:07

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>the cars need to be fully forward and the angle that Bryan has may not clear the cabin top. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I looked at that when I installed the stanchion-mounted block. I put the jib sheet cars all the way up then set the stanchion-mounted block so it would not rub. When I'm using the 135% there is more clearance between the sheet and the cabin top. I could be wrong but I don't think the wk's jib sheet trac goes as far forward as the wb.

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> What type/make blocks did you use on the stanchions?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

It is a block made just for that purpose West Marine sells them in a couple of different brands. The one's I have are Schaefer. I bet if Don L. sees this he can find a picture on his massive hard drive.<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - Bryan Beamer on 02/20/2003 23:17:10

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 23:43:41

<img src="http://www.sailnet.com/store/prodimage/160x160/sch300-34.gif" border=0>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 23:46:21

See I told you.<img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/21/2003 : 00:00:32

Schaefer Stanchion Mounted Furling Block SWL=1000lbs
<img src="http://www.sailnet.com/store/prodimage/160x160/sch300-34.gif" border=0>

Harken Stanchion Mount, 32mm
For bullet, big bullet & 2-1/14 inch blocks
<img src="http://www.sailnet.com/store/prodimage/160x160/har061.gif" border=0>

Spinlock Stanchion Lead Block SWL=600lbs
<img src="http://www.sailnet.com/store/prodimage/160x160/spnwl2.gif" border=0>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/22/2003 : 22:31:28

Bryan, the rain stopped after a 48 hr drenching and I got busy working on the boat in prep for the April Bahamas cruise. I took the time to check out adding blocks to line up the jib sheets to overcome the overide propensity. I had a couple of Harken stanchion mounts and borrowed the block I use on my stem for the tack line and baby stay to check out combining a turning block as you have along with the rub rail.

It will work well but my rub rails need to be removed and moved over slightly which is no problem as the mounting screw holes were well away from the ends. Using the rub rail allows placing the Harken mount very near the base of the stanchion and becuse the mount has a floating swivel it allows the block to find its place to bisect the turn.

It places the sheet exactly parallel to the coaming with the sheet at the bottom of the winch drum and running down the middle of the coaming which is better than the way mine did with the rub rail only because the sheet was bothersome to someone on that side using the bulkhead for a back rest.

It should eliminate the over rides.

There ought to be a block that will mount vertically to the stanchion rather than use the rup rails but I have em so will use them.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 11:07:49

Arlyn,

I am also looking at my override problem. Sailing yesterday I had the thought on my mind. I got some ideas and thoughts I will be working on in the next couple of weeks. I have ruled out the winch blocks. I don't like the look and I'm not convinced they will fix the problem.

My other project, my wife as been begging for 3 years for me to install a microwave.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 11:56:28

Is there a very small microwave that will operate off a reasonably priced inverter?

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 21:37:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Is there a very small microwave that will operate off a reasonably priced inverter? <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I am putting in a microwave to be used on shore power only. With 2 kids we don't anchor much. I have seen inverters at Radio Shack that are small in size and cost wasn't too bad, they would supply 1000-watts. I did not notice what the DC draw was or for how long it would last. I do remember seeing a post about someone using an inverter to power a microwave while sailing. I will see if I can find it.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 22:07:22

Here is the post

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I had originally taken my curtain burner that was in need of refit anyway, and converted to propane with the aforementioned "coleman transplant". It worked fine for a little while, the knobs kept falling off and I never really felt too comfortable with propane in the cabin and decided not to hassle with mounting a tank or extending a line out into the cockpit. So I yanked it and installed a microwave and never looked back. I'm like many here and mainly day sail, cook on magma out and micro in dock. It's only 600watt that cost $45 and can be operated (someday) from an inverter for heating small quick things like soup or the day sailor's beloved dinty moore stew (mmm, ugh). I mounted a premade cutting board from kmart with velcro to the top, which allows me to clean after cutting meats and stuff. I installed a new outlet in the back of the old stove well (GFCI) to accomodate it and the coffee maker better. Like I said, I've never looked back and haven't missed it!!

Patrick Burnett, Little Rock, AR
S/V Lucky Star #2707 1982 SK/SR
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2003 : 18:06:11

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> I am also looking at my override problem. Sailing yesterday I had the thought on my mind. I got some ideas and thoughts I will be working on in the next couple of weeks. <hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

With the addition of another stanchion-mounted block and the repositioning of the existing one I have fixed the over riding problem.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd10b3127cce95992bd103c40000001610" border=0>

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd10b3127cce95992bc682e30000001610" border=0>

The last 2 pictures are of the Cunningham routing. The cam cleat next to the winch is the 1/4" Cunningham line. (Sorry I didn't think of taking picture while we were sailing)

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd10b3127cce95992bcb03de0000001610" border=0>

The Cunningham is the 3 to 1 on the starboard side of the boom vang.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dd10b3127cce95992bb103a40000001610" border=0>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 03/31/2003 : 20:15:12

Bryan, interested to hear your thoughts as to the effectivness of the cunningham...

I tried one... but it didn't have the effect on the C250 with full battens compared to my old C22. I also rigged mine 3:1 but its been relegated to the spare parts bag because of lack of use.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 04/01/2003 : 23:34:21

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Bryan, interested to hear your thoughts as to the effectiveness of the Cunningham...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

As Arlyn stated before with the boom bolted to the mast the only way to adjust luff tension is with the halyard.

I grew up sailing on a Chrysler 26 with the boom bolted to the mast and we had a Cunningham so I thought I would try it on my c250. I don't think is has the same flatting abilities with the full battens. But you can see it flatten the luff. I light air if you hoist the sail and leave the wrinkles showing then pull on the Cunningham the wrinkles do go away. I have look up the mast and had someone tighten then release the Cunningham and you can see the luff flatten. I do remember on the boat I mention earlier that the Cunningham would flatten the luff in a wider pattern.

I have been testing more sail controls lately, both my crew and myself can tell the difference in a blow that using the Cunningham does depower the main enough in my eyes to make it effective. I've also been testing the effects of using the traveler more and adjusting the jib car forward and backward to increase speed and depower the jib. I also read the articles by Bill Holcomb on Weatherhelm and Pointing. He has some interesting points on boat balance fore and aft. Here is part of his comments taken out of the Pointing article. (These article are located in the Technical tips section of this web site)

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>Boat's Balance Fore and Aft

Another factor that directly affects pointing ability is the balance of the boat on a fore and aft plane. If there's too much weight aft, the transom squats into the water and actually causes significant drag. This slows the boat down and leeway is developed very quickly. Having too much weight aft might be as a result of stowing heavy gear in the cockpit lockers or in the quarter berth areas. It might be caused by the skipper sitting back next to the stern rail. Or, having too much weight aft might also be caused by the current trend toward higher horsepower 4-cycle engines. Adding 15hp 4-cycle engine that weighs 115 lbs. to replace a 7.5hp 2-cycle engine that weighs 75 lbs. is like coiling 60 feet of 1/4" chain on the stern pulpit. Allowing a 100-lb. child to ride in the stern rail seats is like adding 150 feet of 1/4" inch chain to the stern rail. In either case, the stern is pushed down by the extra weight and the boat's ability to point is decreased rather dramatically.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

After reading Arlyn's & Steve Milby's comments in the c25 balanced rubber thread I was starting to wonder if the added weight to the bow to lift the squatting stern was a good thought but now after reading these articles I think I'm doing the right thing.

Af

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2003 : 09:36:16

Thanks Bryan for your comments on the cunningham... my observations were about the same.

If adding the weight forward balances the boat...I'd guess that the weight gain is not as costly as the drag that was reduced by doing so. Stern squatting drag can be significant...perhaps someone with a speedo that reads in tenths can give us a report by switching crew weights fore and aft on a few points of sail and posting the results.

Of course, some of the result of raising the stern is to raise the rudder and reduce its drag which is likely (other than the keel), the greatest source of drag...espcecially the high lift rudder required on the C250.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Rick Evans
1st Mate

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USA
38 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2003 : 15:23:55

You may want to reconsider mounting winches. Like most 250 owners, even with tiller steering, its not convenient to run up to the cabin mounted winches to sheet in or ease the jib. I attached a stanchion mounted block port & starboard and ran the jib sheet back to the cockit. Instead of winches, I use a Harken swivel mounted spring loaded cam cleat arrangement screwed into where you plan on putting your winches. In all honesty, I question whether winches are really, really necessary especially in lighter winds. If you sheet in promptly when coming about, the winch is overkill. Admittedly, I only have a 110% jib but I haven't missed the winches even in 20 knot winds. The stanchion mounted blocks keep the sheets well off the gel coat. It makes single handling very easy now. Good luck on whatever your choice is.

Edited by - on

Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2003 : 16:01:03

We use our coaming winches for the 155% drifter and we have a 135% headsail. With the winches sail adjustment is very easy. After we tack we set the jib and install the locking winch handle then when the jib stretches and needs to be adjusted we just turn the handle. With the winches my 13-year-old boy has no trouble with the jib.

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2980 Posts

Response Posted - 04/02/2003 : 19:53:52

Rick....great idea. Yes in light to moderate winds... the winches are not necessary. I used swivel cams for some time and had them mounted in the stead of the cams at the companionway... worked fairly well.

In heavier air...its likely that one could even get by with using blocks at the clew and double back the sheets for a 2:1 purchase like the Hobie's are rigged. If I were to set up this way it would be for racing and would use ratchet blocks with a cam.

btw... I saw some small self tailing winches listed as new items in Sail Magazine... perported to be reasonable whatever that means.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
<img src="http://www.stewartfam.net/arlyn/rr.jpg" border=0>
N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

zebra50
Captain

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USA
408 Posts

Response Posted - 04/09/2003 : 21:32:30

Arlyn, I may have missed it in all this discussion, but what size and make of winch did you use?

Jay
Papa's Boat II
250WB #370

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