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A/C electrical question ...

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Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1775 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/18/2003 : 09:45:05

Hi everyone,

Now that I've just about finished fixing up my D/C electrical system, I want to upgrade my A/C electrical system. It is the original setup that came with the boat ... it is nothing more than a shore power connector with some wires that go to a double plug in the galley ... 'no breakers, 'nothing but wires that go directly to the outlet.

I want to add an outlet in the head area, and I want to add a battery charger. I was thinking that all I needed to do was to add a circuit breaker panel along with some extra wiring. I found this Weems & Plath breaker panel on eBay:

<img src="http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_89a7334baf0e81fb2f92c1eaacf45cf3/i-1.JPG" border=0>

<img src="http://ebay1.ipixmedia.com/abc/M28/_EBAY_89a7334baf0e81fb2f92c1eaacf45cf3/i-2.JPG" border=0>

I have bid on it, but I'm not sure it's what I need. I don't understand why one of the three breakers is rated for only 5 amps ... what is that good for?

I know next to nothing about electricity ... however, I thought the 15 and 20 amp circuits would be adequate ... I could be wrong about that, too. The biggest draw in the galley will be the microwave, and the biggest draw in the head will be the Cruisair air conditioner, or maybe a hair dryer.

The third item I want to power with the panel is a battery charger ... it's stored on the boat, and I don't remember anything about it, except that it is heavy as hell. Anyway, it seems to me that 5 amps is too wimpy, even for a charger.

There is a little more info about the panel in the eBay listing ... here is the link: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem& category=26449& item=2404242016& rd=1

I'm so far out of my league on this electrical stuff that I need to shut up now and hear what y'all have to say ... thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Mark Loyacano
Navigator

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USA
247 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2003 : 10:10:29

Hi Buzz,
If it were me I would hire an electrician who would allow me to help.
Mark L.

Edited by - on

Leon Sisson
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1893 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2003 : 12:26:07

Buzz,

My suggestion is to read a book or two on boat wiring. It's not rocket science once you understand it, but just diving in with teeth clenched and fingers crossed, learning by trial and error, isn't the best way to build a safe reliable 120 volt system.

You might want to start with:

"Sailboat Electrics Simplified" (which may also be sold as "Sailboat Electrical Systems: Improvement, Wiring, and Repair") by Don Casey, (International Marine/McGraw-Hill) $22, but on sale at Amazon.com for about $15

<center>and/or</center>

"Boatowner's Illustrated Handbook of Wiring", by Charlie Wing, (International Marine/McGraw-Hill) $30, but on sale at Amazon.com for about $21

And if you don't already have a copy of Don Casey's "This Old Boat", you might want to pick it up at the same time.

Oh, and be ready to spend some boat bucks. Buying the books will get you in practice for that.

-- Leon Sisson

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/18/2003 : 15:22:51

Buzz -

First thing you want is definitely to put that panel in...I would actually recommend a panel with a master switch as well. I don't think you will get much out of the 5 amp panel. The one we plan to install is this model -

<img src="http://www.sailnet.com/store/prodimage/160x160/bss8043.gif" border=0>

http://www.sailnet.com/store/item.cfm?pid=12600

One switch for the microwave, one for the charger, one for the outlets. Also, if you have never wired anything with AC - consult an electrician or a good book. Its a fairly simple process, however one small slip of the mind and it can be disastrous... Good thing is, when your at sea you will never have a problem with it because you won't be plugged in.

Side note:
The old panels that anyone might have that look like a old fashioned home circuit breaker or fuse box are not up to code anymore!!

DW

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1775 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 09:45:39

Thanks for the help everyone ...

Mark ... 'wish I could afford to hire it done, but I am enjoying unemployment right now.

Leon ... I bought This Old Boat but I haven't gotten to the wiring/electrical chapters yet ... I might skip forward to those and see what Don Casey recommends.

Duane ... thanks for the info and the link. I was wondering, what is the purpose of the voltmeter? Is it connected to your battery(ies)? It doesn't seem to me that it is important to know the voltage coming from your shore power ... is it?

I've already been outbid on the eBay panel, and I think I'm going to pass on it ... it probably isn't going to do the job for me.

If anyone else has more suggestions, I'm all ears ... thanks!

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 10:07:52

Hi Buzz,

Here is a link to a photo in the Tech Tips section that shows the electrical panel setup aboard Snickerdoodle.

http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/tt024.html

The 120 AC panel has two 20 amp breakers and three 10 amp breakers. The upper 20 amp breaker supplies AC power to the battery charger. The other 20 amp breaker supplies the galley outlet. One of the 10 amp breakers is for a circuit to an outlet on the forward part of the port settee, another 10 amp is for an outlet in the v-berth. The third 10 amp is for an outlet in the quarter berth.

BTW: 10 amp breakers are not "strong" enough to handle a Black & Decker floor heater with its fan on #3 high speed. THey are strong enough for the heater with its fan on #2 medium speed.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Earl Landers
Navigator

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USA
157 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 10:20:51

Buzz,
The voltmeter will give you a hint as to the condition of the wiring to your slip. If you see a significant voltage drop when you start your battery charger or microwave, chances are good that you have a bad/corroded connection, which also means you shouldn't use things that use electronic regulation such as battery charges and microwaves.<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle> The other good thing about the Blue Sea panel shown above is that there is a reverse polarity indicator. It will let you know when there a Hot/Neutral reversal in the AC source wiring <img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle>, a possibly shocking situation! One thing I don't see on the Weems/Plath panel is a separate ground buss. There should be separate neutral and ground busses that are not connected together.

Earl Landers
'83 C25 SR/SK
"Gentle Spirit"

Edited by - Earl Landers on 02/19/2003 10:29:09

Edited by - on

GeorgeB
1st Mate

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90 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 15:12:26

The panel that you are looking at on eBay won't meet the current standards for boat wiring. You will want one that has a main breaker that is a double pole, at least 30 amps. Then breakers for each circut you want to run. I really can't see the value of a guage on your AC shore power. A digital Volt/Ohm meter from Radio Shackis a whole lot better investment of your money. After all when was the last time you checked the power on any of your home lines?

Of greater importance is some indicator on the panel that shore power has the correct polarity. With the references that Leon suggested what you want to do should not be beyond the ability of an owner.

Edited by - on

apgibbs
Deckhand

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USA
13 Posts

Response Posted - 02/19/2003 : 22:02:21

Actually, the voltmeter on the panel IS a good idea; on your boat you disconnect and re-connect the power leads every time you go sailing, while your electrical feed line at home is permanently attached. The shorepower cable and connections are potential problem areas, and should be monitored. Over the years I've had to tighten a LOT of loose industrial electrical connections, and a 30 amp line can definitely generate enough heat to ruin your evening on board.

Pat Gibbs "Enchanteur"
C25 #4332 trad/fin

Edited by - on

Bill Holcomb
Admiral

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USA
769 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 11:03:54

Hi Buzz,

I've been thinking about your comments that your battery charger is "heavy as hell".....and only 5 amps. What kind of charger is it anyway??

The three stage charger on Snickerdoodle weighs about 5 lbs. And, it is rated as to the voltage it puts back into the battery in each phase of charging. 14+ volts in the high charge "bulk" phase - - until the battery is about 75% recharged. Then the middle "acceptance" phase it still puts out 14+ volts until the battery is within about 2% of fully recharged. The final "float" phase sees the charger reduce the charge to around 13 volts and maintains the battery at that level without "boiling" out the electrolyte from the battery.

This type of three stage (some chargers have four stages)is much better than a standard car battery charger that puts a steady charge into the battery until the charger is unplugged. That steady charge will "boil" the electrolyte out of the battery and ruin the battery.

Don't forget to put an inline fuse on the battery "+" wire fairly close to the battery. If the charger fails to go into the float phase, the "+" wire can get awfully hot and possibly start a fire aboard your boat. About 10 years ago, I inspected the battery box compartment on a C25 that had exactly this happen. The owner was using a single phase "trickle" charger which malfunctioned. The "+" battery wire had melted all of the insulation off of it about 8" from the battery and then had melted the copper wire until the wire melted in two. The compartment hatch had been scorched and there was a thick and distict smell of burnt materials aboard the boat. Of course, all of this had happened while the owner was at work for a week. The inline fuse will open the circuit in case of charger malfunction.

Finally Buzz, be careful to select the charging voltage with regard to the type of battery that you'll be charging. Lead acid "wet" batteries generally need 14.4 volts to charge properly during the first two phases. Then 13.3 for the float phase. Gel batteries need 14.1 volts in the first two phases; and then 13.7 volts for the float phase. There should be a selector switch on the charger that allows you to choose the charger output that is right for your battery. 14.4 volts to a gel will ruin it fairly quickly. And, because of the different voltage requirements, that is one reason why you shouldn't mix wet and gel batteries aboard your boat.

Bill Holcomb - C25 Snickerdoodle #4839

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1775 Posts

Response Posted - 02/20/2003 : 11:15:31

Hi Buzz,

I've been thinking about your comments that your battery charger is "heavy as hell".....and only 5 amps. What kind of charger is it anyway?? - Bill Holcomb


Hi Bill,

I didn't mean the charger was rated at 5 amps ... I don't know what its rating is. Like I said, it is stored on the boat, so I haven't gotten around to reading its labeling. I bought it from a guy who was switching from "wet" batteries to gel cells, so I know it is OK for my battery ... I just can't tell you anything about it off the top of my head. Again, my feeling is that the 5 amp circuit on the eBay breaker panel isn't enough amperage for it.

I'm not going to get the eBay panel ... I've already gotten too many comments on this thread to know that it won't work. I am going to keep my eye out for something that will work for me, and one that is up to current code.

Thanks everyone for the help ... I'm still scratching my head on this one.

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

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