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rrick
Captain

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USA
261 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2014 : 21:40:12

Master cylinder replacement... on the trailer? If that is all your trailer brakes need keep it cheap. But if full replacement is needed, I've had good luck with electronic brakes and freshwater only launches. E-brakes will solve a fishtail with push of a button. My first 25 miles towing I had my finger on that brake button until I got more comfortable. I thank you for the experience tale of add throttle, though.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/26/2014 : 21:50:47

7.5 - 10%. I won't cite the testing since I've posted about it several time before, but there is no basis for the old percentage having grown over the years - more than you need is not better. Pull the boat up to the bow block! Having the boat free to slam forward is crazy. The boat and trailer should move as one with tight control of any possible lateral, vertical or longitudinal movement of the boat. If proper tongue weight doesn't solve fish tailing, you probably have a spring, tire, or axle problem that needs to be addressed. I have around 450 - 500 depending on how it's loaded, 475 (about 8%) is my target. Remember that it is the total boat/gear+trailer weight.

Edited by - Dave5041 on 05/26/2014 22:11:42

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 05:26:07

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by rrick
 Master cylinder replacement... on the trailer? If that is all your trailer brakes need keep it cheap. But if full replacement is needed, I've had good luck with electronic brakes and freshwater only launches....
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I was under the impression that electric brake were a no-no on boat trailers. No? I'm sure you'd want to unplug prior to dipping the trailer but I've never considered electric brakes.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 07:24:29

I changed to electric brakes and will never recommend surge brakes. Electrics come in marine grade and work so much better than surges that it is hard to believe surges are allowed on the road.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 09:14:04

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by pastmember
 I changed to electric brakes and will never recommend surge brakes. Electrics come in marine grade and work so much better than surges that it is hard to believe surges are allowed on the road.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I'll definitely look into the marine grade brakes. Never heard of them before.

Edited by - on

Davy J
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1511 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 09:24:29

Here is a link to an article on electric over hydraulic brakes by BoatUS:

http://www.boatus.com/magazine/trailering/2013/february/electric-over-hydraulic-brakes.asp

Edited by - on

TEM58
Navigator

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USA
113 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 10:14:40

From the article: "You can't get the electric over hydraulic actuator wet,".

Is there a way to avoid this when launching/retrieving? Like most folks around my area I have to use a strap, so the entire trailer is pretty well submerged.

Edited by - on

pastmember
Master Marine Consultant

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2402 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 12:29:02

All I have ever heard is you have to unplug it but making it removable would be easy with extra connectors.

Edited by - on

WesAllen
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 18:22:09

My trailer came new from Loadmaster with electric brakes. I have never unhooked them for a launch or haul out. It has an extendable tongue and the wire harness came long enough to keep it plugged in with the tongue extended. They work great yet after three years. I would never go back to hydraulic if given the choice.

Wes Allen

P.S. A brake controller is needed though.

Edited by - WesAllen on 05/27/2014 18:23:27

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 18:34:30

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Dave5041
 7.5 - 10%. I won't cite the testing since I've posted about it several time before, but there is no basis for the old percentage having grown over the years - more than you need is not better. Pull the boat up to the bow block! Having the boat free to slam forward is crazy. The boat and trailer should move as one with tight control of any possible lateral, vertical or longitudinal movement of the boat. If proper tongue weight doesn't solve fish tailing, you probably have a spring, tire, or axle problem that needs to be addressed. I have around 450 - 500 depending on how it's loaded, 475 (about 8%) is my target. Remember that it is the total boat/gear+trailer weight.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
I knew someone had posted about that subject before, just couldn't remember who so stated the old rule of thumb.

I can believe that 10% is probably too much for most trailers but I think the design of the trailer probably has something to do with which end of the spectrum you want to be on.

I would think the shorter the distance between the coupler and the axles the heavier you might want to go. With a longer distance you can probably get by with a lighter tongue weight.

The above is a pure guess tho! Hopefully someone will have more info.

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
396 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 19:30:08

Hey Kyle -

What is wrong with adding weight to the tongue? Lead (Pb) is only about $0.50/lbs. and you could easily fabricate a custom weight at the "V"?

Edited by - on

BCG-Woodbury
Mainsheet Editor

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USA
396 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 19:37:22

Kyle -

A piece of Pb that is 12"x12"x9" will give you the weight you need for about $250

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/27/2014 : 19:54:16

Moving the boat forward will accomplish the same thing for free without adding to your tow weight. That is the way it should be done. You might have to move the upright, but just snugging the boat to the bow block will probably do it.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 03:19:57

The first C25 we purchased was tail heavy but we knew that before taking it home so we added 2 buckets of chains (about 150lbs) to the tongue which worked well. I would rather move the boat to where it should be but I'm also concerned about the bow rubbing in the bow block. Personally, I don't believe the bow block does anything except give you a guide to place the boat on the trailer. After the ordeal we went through, when this boat should have been laying in the median of the interstate, the boat hadn't moved a single inch and I think that's because we had it strapped at the bow and stern. I watched the bow and bow block move opposite each other in the mirror over rough roads wondering what that might do to the gel coat if they were rubbing together.

Just my thoughts.

Edited by - Kper on 05/28/2014 03:21:09

kc5dlo
1st Mate

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USA
71 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 04:48:43

I noticed in one of the picks that the outboard was on the transom. If the motor is easy enough to take off, that would add tongue weight.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 06:07:53

That was in the initial plan before departure but wiring for the alternator was hard wired and I elected to not mess with it and chose to simply secure the motor. Plans to build a quick disconnect are in the plans should we decide to trailer any extended distances.

So, in short, I had considered the motor as a liability to the situation.

Edited by - on

Captain Max
1st Mate

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USA
87 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 14:56:57

I sold a spindrift 22 years ago that had a trailer I never used. We loaded the boat up only to have the boat fish tailing at low speeds. Turns out the trailer post was way too far back. There wasn't time to put it back in the water and adjust everything. The buyer was going back to Georgia (from texas). Thank god I talked him out of it.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 16:59:08

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by Kper
 The first C25 we purchased was tail heavy but we knew that before taking it home so we added 2 buckets of chains (about 150lbs) to the tongue which worked well. I would rather move the boat to where it should be but I'm also concerned about the bow rubbing in the bow block. Personally, I don't believe the bow block does anything except give you a guide to place the boat on the trailer. After the ordeal we went through, when this boat should have been laying in the median of the interstate, the boat hadn't moved a single inch and I think that's because we had it strapped at the bow and stern. I watched the bow and bow block move opposite each other in the mirror over rough roads wondering what that might do to the gel coat if they were rubbing together.

Just my thoughts.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The bow block/stop is there to help keep the front of the boat from sliding sideways off the the trailer under certain hard braking/rough road situations.

I know because it happened to me with a properly secure powerboat when I had to go across a rough median. The boat popped out of the bow stop and slid forward and part of the way off the trailer. It took four of us to get it back onto the trailer and re-secured. If the bow block and the trailer winch had not been there the boat would have come completely off the trailer. In this case it turned out the bow stop was not big enough to properly hold the front of the boat.

When to the stop and the boat are winched up tight they move together, not in opposite directions. They will still move around, just together. It's not going to hurt the gel-coat.

More importantly though, it keeps the boat from becoming an occupant of your backseat if you have to lock up the brakes or otherwise come to a quick stop. Someone could get severely injured or killed if the boat comes forward off the trailer.

Edited by - GaryB on 05/28/2014 17:02:48

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 18:12:48

I don't want to argue for the sake of arguing but I can honestly say that this boat was not coming off this trailer. I don't care if it barrel rolled into the median, it was not going to move. After witnessing this boat go through what it did and not move a single inch from where I had secured it, at the bow or on the pads, I would bet a pay check it would stay put even if I rear ended somebody. With two 4" wide, 20k pound straps - one between the bow pulpit and the forward hatch and the other across the cockpit I firmly believe this boat was one with the trailer unless there was catastrophic fiberglass failure. And then it wouldn't really matter where you had it secured. Not to blow my own horn but, after securing my own semi loads on flat beds for the past 19 years and experiencing what I did last weekend the bow block was there only for peace of mind. Of course this isn't to say that the boat shouldn't be placed in the bow block, because boating is new to me and maybe that's where it should be but I don't think two 3/8" u-bolts securing the bow brace is going to prevent 4500 lbs from going forward if the boat isn't properly secured. Maybe my bow brace isn't secured on the trailer frame, your words will make me check that because I am hesitant to place the bow into the bow block with the block moving on rough roads like it was.

Just my .02 so please don't flame me it's only my opinion and I'm not saying what everyone else is doing is wrong.

Edit: Sometimes written conversation sounds like heated discussion and this is not my intention. I'm simply making points in hopes of constructive feedback.

Edited by - Kper on 05/28/2014 18:15:27

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 18:16:11

Sorry Kyle, I didn't mean to come across as pointing a finger at you, I was just posting to clarify for others what the stop is for. Guess I could have done it differently.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 18:25:05

I didn't take it that way, Gary. At this point I'm more concerned about the movement of my bow brace thinking that maybe something is loose or the trailer is twisting on uneven roads.

I want to do it right and I seem to have gotten off to a rough start trying to figure out how this is supposed to work. Semi's I understand, boat trailers "now" have me a bit more nervous than I ever have been in a truck. lol

I knew I was taking a chance driving this thing 400 miles not knowing its maintenance history. It was mentioned earlier about mechanical issues contributing to the condition and I will be going from tongue to taillight making sure everything is in order even though the marina is only 10 minutes from the house.

Thank you for all the input and that goes to everyone because it all goes into my mental database (it's getting harder and harder to retrieve some of it anymore) and I use this info to make my boat better and my travels safer.

Thanks, again.

Edited by - on

GaryB
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
4304 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 18:28:27

Take some pictures of the bow brace and let the vast and unpaid research team (forum members) take a look. Might want to start a new post.

Edited by - on

Kper
Captain

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USA
417 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 18:37:54

I may do just that when I have light outside. Maybe this weekend.
Thanks, Gary.

Edited by - on

Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/28/2014 : 21:09:55

The bow block is usually ”V" shaped. That should be a clue that something fits in there.

Edited by - on

Lehooks
Deckhand

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USA
11 Posts

Response Posted - 05/29/2014 : 17:39:27

Kyle,

I experienced the same problem when I moved my 250 two years ago. I had owned Victory for several years but kept her 100 miles away and had never towed her. When I moved her home I had two wild episodes that cleared all the lanes on I-35. I know what you experienced. It takes several days to get over. I didn't lose her but she swayed so violently that she moved several inches on the trailer. I had to keep it under 55 to complete the trip.

What I learned: 1)speeding up is not the solution. I tried that the first time and she did not settle down until I braked and slowed. My research says that the only way to bring a wildly swaying trailer under control is braking. 2) You are on the right path with tongue weight. My boat was a couple of inches short of the brace and my 250 is a WK so she sits even higher than yours. A few inches forward will make a big difference. I also suspect the hitch height. If your hitch was an inch or two lower the weight would increase significantly.

LH

Edited by - on

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