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Catalina/Capri 25/250 Sailor's Forums

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Mystery of the shrunken stays

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Initially Posted - 05/31/2014 : 16:22:31

Help. Tried to step my mast with the help of cherry picker at marina but somehow was unable to connect backstay from mast to the end of the split backstay. Even when the back adjustment was let out all the way I still still was short a couple of inches. Cherry picker operator was worried that putting to much tension would pull the boat off the stands. Any suggestions?

Vern Wright
Hajime

97 Catalina 250 TR/ WK
Hull #301
Attleboro, MA

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2014 : 16:46:41

Do you use, or maybe need, a toggle on the forestay?

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2014 : 16:59:37

I have a CDI roller furler attached to the high point of bow "L" bracket. I suppose I could attach some kind of shackle to the pin in CDI and loop it through bracket? Doesn't seem quite right .

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delliottg
Former Mainsheet C250 Tech Editor

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USA
4479 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2014 : 17:24:23

Something that's happened to me, is the jaws of the turnbuckle get cocked so it's not all aligned. I've had that happen to my side stays more than once and have to lower the mast all the way back down, and straighten it out.

Let us know what you find out.

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2014 : 18:15:44

David by turnbuckle do you mean those question mark things at the upper end of the side stays that hook into the mast near the spreaders? If so I have had that happen to me too. Is back stay and furler attached similarly to the port and starboard stay-to-mast attachment? Cherry picker operator thought that things looked okay up there as far as the fore and aft connection to the mast is concerned but maybe he's more clueless than I think.

If you mean the turnbuckle adjusters near the deck http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnbuckle - is it possible for them to get cocked or bent? Last year I raised mast by hand, attached back stays first and then had a terrible time trying to get the CDI attached. We had a couple of strong men yanking on the thing and were finally able to slip the pin in. I almost wonder if maybe the mast is somehow not settled in all the way to the terminus of the hinge boot- but how could it not be?

I think I may have to put a shackle in between the back stay and the y splitter which feeds the cables to the port and starboard stern.

Still doesn't seem right...

Vern Wright
Hajime

Edited by - on

Voyager
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
5376 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2014 : 18:21:16

For you MEs out there - what are the coefficients of expansion between aluminum and stainless steel cable?
Also, maybe the stays should be connected to another mast-top connection point?
When I dropped my mast it seemed that there were 2 holes available for the backstay and topping lift and three holes for the forestay, spinnaker halyard block and something else(?).
If the stays were connected to the wrong hole it's possible there could be a mismatch ...

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Dave5041
Former Mainsheet Editor

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USA
3758 Posts

Response Posted - 05/31/2014 : 19:22:20

You definitely need to solve the problem rather than jury rig a fix if it fit before. Switched a pair of stays, wrong attachment point on the fore or back stay, forestay turnbuckle screwed in too tight? Turnbuckles are adjusters, so it is at the foot of the shroud. That is all that comes to my mind. I only have 2 holes at each end of the masthead. Both the forestay and back stay go in the aft holes on their appropriate ends.

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TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/02/2014 : 20:12:32

Sorry I came into this late. Is this how your forestay/furler drum are attached?

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ruachwrights
Captain

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USA
258 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2014 : 11:16:40

Here is my solution. Only time will tell if I have taken the correct approach.

Since it was so difficult to attach the forestay furler last year (it took three strong men pulling on ropes to get her attached), and given the fact that there are no alternate locations for stay attachments on a 250 mast, I surmise that either the factory or time produced stays that were slightly too short for an ordinary human to attach. I therefore took matters into my own hands and attached a stout stainless "D" shackle on the stainless port and starboard stern stay attachments. This gave me just enough room for me to be able to attach the center back stay to the split stays myself. I then could tighten the turnbuckle to achieve proper tension. The arrangement also provides me with a little more clearance in and out of the stays as I make fast dashes past the wheel to the cabin winches.

P.S. Rick, yes this is exactly my arrangement on the bow...

Vern Wright
Hajime

Edited by - on

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2014 : 13:24:01

Vern,

After reading all your messages, I'm a little concerned with the order and the location in which you're detaching/attaching your stays.

FWIW, I've never completely detached the backstay at the "Y" joiner. When I take the mast down, I first loosen the backstay turnbuckle by 10-20 turns (be sure to use a wrench to keep the backstay from twisting), then I use my mainsheet tackle to create a little slack in the port backstay (4:1 purchase gives good tension), then I remove the port backstay (it has a D-shackle) but leave the starboard side attached. This allows the mast to go just far enough forward to detach the forestay. The starboard backstay never gets detached.

[EDIT: Note that all of this is done with uppers and lower turnbuckles let out about 6 turns. The shrouds on the C250 are all designed to pull the top of the mast aft, so without loosening them you have too much tension on the forestay to attach it.]

Putting the mast up is just the reverse order. Having only one side of the backstay attached creates just enough slack to attach the clevis pin at the base of the forestay/furler drum. It is tough to make that attachment, because the weight of the furler causes the forestay to sag just enough to make it difficult. Sometimes I need to pump the forestay and punch the clevis pin in just at the right time.

My concern about lengthening the backstay in the way you describe would be with mast rake. If one of the stays needs to be lengthened, it should be done at the location that preserves the 4" mast rake that Catalina specifies. I suggest that you pull up your furler drum and have a look at the turnbuckle underneath. Make sure it has cotter pins, because lacking those could prove fatal. You might find that you need to adjust that turnbuckle to get the proper mast rake and/or forestay tension.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/09/2014 13:26:13

TakeFive
Master Marine Consultant

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2272 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2014 : 13:38:37

Vern,

I want to follow up with a question that I briefly mentioned in my prior message. Are you using a wrench to ensure that the stays do not twist when you tighten them? For the life of me, I can't imagine how stays would shrink over time. But if you're cranking on the turnbuckle without preventing the stays from twisting, that action could definitely have the effect of shortening the stays.

Edited by - TakeFive on 06/09/2014 13:40:27

britinusa
Web Editor

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USA
5404 Posts

Response Posted - 06/09/2014 : 13:44:03

As we raise and lower the mast every trip and have the single backstay (attaches to the deck hoop on the outside of the swim ladder walk through area.) Here's a <b>brief</b> review:

Once the mast is secured to the mast base plate, and resting on the stern mast crutch, I attach the winch strap to the unused jib halyard, the other end of the halyard is secured to the mast cleats.

Now take the strain with the trailer winch and raise the mast (baby stays keep it pretty close to centerline)

<b>NOTE: We do not make any adjustments to the upper or lower shrouds at all!</b>

Once up, we carefully increase the strain on the halyard (using the winch) until I can pop in the forestay pin below the furler. Release the halyard. Mast is up, now connect the back stay.

To lower the mast, follow the reverse, disconnect the backstay, take the strain using the winch on the halyard, as soon as the forestay pin can be turned, then hold the winch. Remove the pin and start lowering the mast onto the stern mast crutch.

[url="http://www.catalina-capri-25s.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=26921&SearchTerms=crack"]Here's why we do not put strain on the mast with the backstay in place.[/url]

Paul

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