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America's Cup is Very Disappointing ?

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/22/2003 : 20:42:38

OK,
I have really enjoyed watching the AC up to now but if they refuse to race in lighter air and if over 20 knts then how long will the race fans have to wait to see race 4?????????
Can you imagine any other sport getting away with a delay due to weather conditions that are anything but dangerous to the safety of the spectators and the athletes? If this sport wants to make it into the mainstream then there will have to be a lot of compromis to sell it to the larger public. But then again, it appears there really is no interest in selling the sport beyond its current following. We are going to watch it either way and we will go sailing tomorrow and talk about it as if it the best sport in the world. I do enjoy the re-plays but I want to get on with it!,
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 09:57:17

Steve,

I've been sailing sixty or more years and never raced so watching a sailboat race is not very sportive to me. I would be more attracted to the races if the sail trimmers wore minivideo cameras on their persons. For me that's where the race is, that and the design of the boats...enough with the up close and personal of a blue plastic bucket. Steve I couldn't agree more with your comment regarding the flim-flam of finding just the right wind for a particular boat and the sailing world be damned.

I've tried to enhance my little ones sailing experience via the AC races and it seems that all I've accomplished to date is to make basketball fans of them. DRAT I SAY <img src=icon_smile_dissapprove.gif border=0 align=middle>

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

Edited by - on

ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 11:14:18

I think lots of folks share your sentiments...
it's pretty pathetic isn't it?

I'm afraid the current AC 'show' is turning lots of people off to sailing. It's not like it was when the 12 meters were chasing each other through the spectator fleet. Now THAT was fun to watch.

What bothers me even more, besides the politics, cheating and big money involved, nothing new to this event) boats should not be temporary & disposable entities... to be tossed-out, cut up and recycled after each use.

IMHO we've got plenty of that in our society already. Maybe they should at least make them glue a piece of teak on the boat somewhere. (grins).

I'd like to see them sail something like the open 60's... and by definition, by golly you will go racing in any conditions between 8 kts and 30 kts. (upper limit out of deference to the folks working the race)

Part of the cup qualifier series (or the cup itself) could/should also include some longer offshore races.

This would be a return to the AC roots were these boats were actually expected to be seaworthy.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

Ray Seitz
Captain

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USA
416 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 12:29:10

I have too many thoughts Re: the AC races to express (mostly because of my lame typing and writing skills), but I grew up in RI and my Dad would always join the spectator fleet. I was young then but I only recall the races being cancled when the winds neared gale force. I remember being part of the spectator fleet on one day when they (12 meter) went out to race, but stopped mid race B/C of winds and ~20'seas. Perhaps some of the older New Englanders have better recall of the cancelation policy back then.

The boats were all one color then with no advertisements. I am sure my mouth dropped open when I saw the beautiful powder blue Damme Patti (my recolection of the name)for the first time. It of course didn't win the AC, but it won the beauty contest in my eyes. Now the boats seem to resemble nascars, I find it difficult to find the beauty that I know is there.

Newport was always a thrill when the AC was going on. The number and size of the boats was indescribable and when the US won it was all hands on the rails on my Dads boat because you could walk across Newport harbor (not a small harbor) on the decks of all the boats.

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df06b3127cce944032c5b1370000000010" border=0>On the hard &
Under Roof Cave Run Lake KY
Ray Seitz C 250WB #628 Sea Major

Edited by - on

tinob
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1883 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 16:25:29

Ray,

Now you went and said it...12 meters...Bring them back (without ads plastered all over them) and watch the interest grow. I have no objection to what is evolving in boat form but give them a race to call their own. And let the AC be a 12 meter event. Kinda narrow minded I know but it's what I cut my teeth on. Had I been around for the J boats in the earlier AC events I'm sure I'd be harping to bring them back. Reminds me of the time, in Key West, when the America replica came out of the back waters and blew away all the catamarans and other present day boats. Now that was a sight to behold. You'ld think they were running their engines the way they wizzed by everyone.

Val on the hard DAGNABIT

Val Bisagni]<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df11b3127cce94709c5ff2e90000000010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Mark Maxwell
Captain

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USA
329 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 20:08:56

Funny, I can't think of any other sport where a challenge is made and the defender can refuse without forfeit. When you make a challenge, the defender has to put up or shut up. You can't just walk away and say "I'm better than you, but only when 'I' want to be".

Today's delay was truly a wind issue (not enough), but the first two were not. Why else do you think that TNZ were all smirking when they declined to race.

I belive that these guy's all know how to sail much better than I. But these guys are acting like whinny pre-madonna's. Light and changing wind conditions are a part of our sport/hobbie. You have to be able to deal with it. I'm disappointed with TNZ. There is hardly any coverage of this sport and this is one reason why.

Just my opinion<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

<img src="http://www.chaplin-nest.com/unkarock/usflagwav.gif" border=0>
Mark-
'Impulse'
C25 #533 DINN/FIN ~_/)~
Bakersfield, CA.

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Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/23/2003 : 21:05:48

Now there's an issue, Mark... Would more people be interested if the AC was raced in whatever conditions were there, including drifting around the course looking for cat's-paws? That's what they used to do in Newport, in 12 meters and even the Js. While I personally appreciate the skills required to compete in light air, I have to admit that the races off Freemantle when DC won back the cup in furious conditions were really exciting. Americans like NASCAR more than they like SCCA (Paul Newman in a Datsun) racing--they want power, speed and danger.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 02/23/2003 21:09:27

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osmepneo
Past Commodore

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USA
1420 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 06:43:12

Alot of issues that us c25ers can talk about concerning the AC.

Yes, it would seem to be better without the sponsors advertising on boat, boom and sails, but who could even think about building a boat? Especially if the AC were returned to "original" format. But remember the good old days included the United States accepting the bid of just one challenger, and there was no challenger series to select the challenger. I think the LVC has increased interest and this morning I noticed that if Alingi wins they are already expecting 20 challnegers at some undefined (as yet) European port.

I have to agree that it seems rediculous to have four days canceled because of unsatifactory wind conditions. Although it has given those of us missed the first three races a chance to see them in replay. It almost seems like the RC is looking for the perfect day, um, lets say 15 knots. Anything less is insufficeient and any thing more is to much.

The boats should be designed to last and capable of withstanding heavier winds and seas than we are led to believe they will withdstand. As DAve said, Americans like power and sailing would be marketed to the power hungry if the races were sailed in heavier conditions. And, recycling should not be the norm, even if the boat needs to sold to someone after it has finished its life as a AC racing boat. It was an awesome afternoon when I first saw a 12 on LI Sound. A beautiful boat, sailing toward the city. Probably cost my skipper mucho boat lengths as we all drooled!

Finally let's think about the first race. If we are thinking a return to the good old days would be best. The first race was one race, lots of boats racing, no hndicaps, no design rules, no challenger series, just one race, with the cup going to the winner, the fastest to complete the course. Is that the way the race should be?

Mmmmmm?

I feel I'm rambling, but like the rest I'm not really pleased with the way the AC has gone and would like to see changes, but who am I . . .

Don Peet
c25, 1665, osmepneo, sr/wk
The Great Sacandaga Lake, NY

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 10:14:37

Given the rate at which they are killing interest (in the US anyway) with this cup series, methinks advertising may not matter quite as much next time around. The organizers will need to do something.

Maybe they will hire the World Wrestling Federation marketing folks.

I can see pyrotechnics, wacky costumes, bellowing announcers, bevys of scantily clad women... probably on the boats no less... how disgusti.... er... hold that thought...

I just had a glorious vision of a 'Hooters' AC boat...

Well now, perhaps not a such a bad idea, yes, hire the WWF!

:>)

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

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Bryan Beamer
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1038 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 10:43:13

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote> Maybe they will hire the World Wrestling Federation marketing folks.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Next your going to tell me that the WWF in fixed!<img src=icon_smile_shock.gif border=0 align=middle> Just like AC racing!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Bryan Beamer
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc23b3127cce9462f2858f2b0000001010" border=0>
Daylight Again
C250wk #495

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oldsalt
Admiral

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USA
578 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 17:11:38

I believe that the AC started "circling the drain" when the deed of gift was mutilated piece by piece.

This used to be a "contest between nations", now it is a contest between sponsors, and one way or another, a Kiwi team will win.

How much interest can this event, which was once the pinnacle of international match racing, generate when races are cancelled due to " adverse weather conditions" that a Catalina 25 can safely tolerate?

Disposable vessels and disposable team loyalties do not make for much fan support, and interest for those whose "countries" are not competing in the finals, or individuals who might become interested in sailing via media coverage.

I remember the year that Australia ll took the cup away from the U.S. amid widespread public interest and a corresponding huge incease in sailboat sales.

Now few outside of the sailing community know the races are in progress.

This has been the worst "America's Cup" event since the "big boat"/catamaran races.

Changes need to be made.

Oldsalt

Edited by - oldsalt on 02/24/2003 17:14:22

Edited by - oldsalt on 02/24/2003 17:15:54

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 18:45:24

My feelings are sure squirreled up... because, when I raced Catamarans, one of the things that I enjoyed the most was that we all had the same design. I couldn't have competed against money but felt happy competing my skills against others.

But, when I spectate... I like the equipment part of the competition as much as the crew skills, likely because its not my boat units involved. And, when sponsors donate equipment or produce new design, we should expect them to get credit.

Some of that filters down...like the shoal draft wing keel.

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

Edited by - on

Ed Montague
Captain

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USA
499 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 19:49:32

Arlyn, What made my memories of the "cat" racing days or any other one design, was having noless then 20 boats on the starting line all working for position, then all the port/starboard crossings going to the weather mark, etc. Very exciting, fight one guy off of your wind and another would swoop in to take the lead. Room at the mark had real meaning. Put all the challengers out on the water at the same time. The only advantage the defenders should have is the location and all the hype that goes with it. Let's face it, a few more collisions would draw a lot more interest and excitement.

Ed Montague on 'Yahoo'
1978 #765 SK, Stnd, Dinette ~_/)~

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gnorgan
Admiral

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USA
563 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 20:52:11

http://americascup.yahoo.com/story_images/3386_LV6030224200237.jpg
The above is the link to the weather pattern heading toward the race.

Ed, I, too, had many a thrill sailing my Prindle 16 in races out here in California. I raced around 9 years before deciding to start a family and sold the Prindle (should never have done that!) a few years later. For the state races in Long Beach harbor, we'd regularly have 30 to 40 boats all vying for room on the start line. Was that ever a thrill and a half <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>. And the weather and leeward marks were absolutely crazy. High winds and big seas were something to fear but hardly ever something we ran away from. Light air was something you learned how to sail in and parts of the year that was all you could hope for. Jay Glazer and Randy Smythe would always show up to add their experience to the mix. Both raced Tornados in the worlds and the Olympic races. They just made us all work harder at being better sailors. And they were good in heavy and light air.....
So what am I trying to get across here? I like the idea that ALL the challengers and the single defender should do a 9 (why not 21 or 35) race series to see who is the best in the world. Now that would be fantastic and would draw lots of attention and fans. Get back to a one design race so all equipment, etc. is the same so the sailors become the race, not the boat being the race. Sponsors, sponshers! I don't like the boat with the most money winning the race...it's like American politicians...I despise it!!
AND...AND...(this REALLY peaves me this time) you must sail for your country. R. Coutts is a traitor and should never have sold out to the highest bidder. All this AC proves is that the New Zealanders are great skippers and the Swiss?....great skiers? I thought this race was supposed to be country vs. country not billionaire vs. billionaire.
Time for dinner. Gotta stop now. Bye.

Gary & Susan Norgan
C25 tall/wing
Classical Cat #5944
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc35b3127cce94ddf43b35f60000001010" border=0>

Edited by - gnorgan on 02/24/2003 20:53:33

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 21:00:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...having noless then 20 boats on the starting line all working for position...
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I weighed in earlier on the side of match racing... What about it, racers? Match or fleet? If a fleet, it would probably have to be a series where the overall winner might not win a single race. (2nd plus 3rd plus 4th beats 1st plus 8th plus 1st, unless you weight the places.) Generally, there'd be minimal tacking and jibing, except to respond to wind shifts and stay on or between the lay-lines. All that counts is time to the mark. Of course, the alternative (match tacking and pushing duels) may be too subtle for the broad market. But that's what I like.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 02/24/2003 21:07:43

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 21:19:27

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
...Get back to a one design race so all equipment, etc. is the same so the sailors become the race, not the boat being the race....<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I don't think it ever was "one design." It was always a contest between designers and technicians, each time (except one) within agreed-to parameters such as the 12 meter rules. We have a variety of one-design series around the world that capture very little interest here in the US--from Sunfish and Laser to Star, J-24, NY 40, and on and on. It seems that the maxis (loosely defined) generate more interest than any of them in part because of the equipment competition.

The buildup for the AC focused on things like the hula, and in past years the winged keel, forward rudder, etc. DC would race a narrow boat in heavy air, then a beamy boat in light air--who knows why? I think one design would fall as flat as the Camaro race one of the networks set up a few years ago.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 02/24/2003 21:21:31

Edited by - on

jsummerfield
1st Mate

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USA
96 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 21:47:08

My company Firewall blocks my access, but this site may be applicable to the topic; http://www.hai-min.com/Gallery/Hootersgirls/index.htm

Edited by - on

John G-
Admiral

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793 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 23:12:03

I have enjoyed racing true one design starting in Thistles. They are very strict. All sails are exactly the same, an 100% jib a main and a spinacker. All sails are dacron (except the spin.) and meet association standards. All boats carry a three person crew, no hiking straps. All rigs are measured to the 1/8th of an inch. The only difference is the old boats are wood the new are fiberglass. The wood boats carry the advantage of being stiffer in heavy air.
The Americas Cup on the other hand has always been about innovation. This is from the Americas Cup web site.
“Five members of the New York Yacht Club joined in a syndicate to finance the building of a 101-foot (30.86m) schooner-yacht named “America”.
It was a racing yacht rather than a pilot boat. The construction contract stipulated that it was to be the fastest yacht in the world. And it came with a money-back guarantee.”

Working within the rules the design is as much a part of the racing as the team on the water.

As for our association. I don’t see how you can stop from racing against some one’s pocket book. It’s the nature of production boats. If some one is willing to pay for a bottom job and Kevlar sails what can you do? Besides buying carbon fibre sails? <img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
 

[url="http://www.peregrinefund.org/"]<img src="http://www.peregrinefund.org/images/intro_mid_image.GIF" border=0>[/url]
 John G- "PEREGRINE" C25-#4762 FK

Edited by - john G- on 02/24/2003 23:17:09

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 23:51:15

"AND...AND...(this REALLY peaves me this time) you must sail for your country. R. Coutts is a traitor and should never have sold out to the highest bidder...I thought this race was supposed to be country vs. country not billionaire vs. billionaire."

The sailing team of the Swiss boat, Alinghi, is comprised of,

8 New Zealanders
8 Swiss
3 Canadiens
3 French
2 Australians
2 Americans
2 Dutch
1 South African
1 German
1 Italian

The boat designer is Dutch, the sailmaker is American, the sail designer is French,..., but the point man, Ernesto Bertarelli, is an Italian born Swiss citizen.

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Arlyn Stewart
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
2984 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 00:06:06

Like others, my budget wouldn't support a money contest and I would have needed to do something else and this is quite frankly what happens a lot with racing or serious competition.

This is one of the reasons why a lot of areas have quite a bit of C22 racing. Old C22s are cheap and plentiful.

Ahhh yes Ed, those crowded starts and marks... our most important rule was that no cat could carry a protest flag. There were friendly discussions after a race and likely nerve played some advantage over the right of way but none of our bunch took things too seriously.

And Ed, your onto something. Last summer while on vacation a county fair had a huge crowd at the bump and run. The lead is constantly changing as the leader gets hammered when lapping. A short course so that boat speed is kept low and some old worn out boats would make a good show, course there might need to be a couple extra chase boats...uh and a salvage barge. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Arlyn C-250 W/B #224
R&R N/E Texas and Great Lakes

[url="http://www.cox-internet.com/arlynstewart/"]Arlyn's C250 Mods n Cruisin Stories[/url]

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