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Pressure and fluids - Bernouli Beer Principle?

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jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/13/2003 : 16:19:05

Ok, so I'm outside last night, clearing the snow off my deck with my snowblower. (not a boat deck, my cabin deck !) We've had a bit of snow over the last few weeks, and it was about 3-4 feet deep.

Beauty night though eh?, crystal clear, snow squeaking under foot, snot freezin' in your nostrils, spit freezing before it hits the ground, polar bears frozen to fire hydrants. Actually it's about -20C, but no wind, so its tolerable.

Anyway, at the end of the job, I've worked up a real sweat, and i reach for a bottle of beer, crack it open (twist top), take one sip, wait a few minutes, and by the time I'm taking the second gulp, the thing is spewing out beer ice - like a beer slushy. So I figure it was frozen to begin with (I keep the case in the unheated garage), grab another one, look into the bottle - no ice or solids, crack it open, and the same thing. DOH !

So, can any of you scientists explain to me why a beer left alone in a bottle that isn't frozen or iced at -20C or so, all of a sudden ices/slushes up when opened ?

And I need technical details. I'm running low on beers, and reading material here in the cabin.. The fever seems to be getting worse too.. When is spring ?

thanks.

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 17:01:34

Same principle as when you release gas (such as propane) from a cylinder and the cylinder gets very cold--sometimes enough to cause condensation or even frost. As the CO2 in the beer decompresses, turns to bubbles, and leaves the beer, the heat within it is suddenly dispersed over a much larger volume (gas instead of liquid), and that volume therefore becomes colder. Prior to opening the bottles, the alcohol was probably barely keeping the beer from freezing, but the expanding CO2 pushed it below the freezing point of the water/alcohol mix.

The reverse is true: When you compress a gas, it becomes hotter. If you then run the compressed (or even liquified) gas through some cooling fins to disperse that heat, and then decompress it again, you have colder gas than you started with. That's how an air conditioner works. A "heat pump" captures the heat from the compression side of the cycle.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - Dave Bristle on 02/13/2003 17:04:21

Edited by - on

Douglas
Master Marine Consultant

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1595 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 17:30:48

It beats me why anyone would question the how come's what for's or why's of an ICE COLD BEER. Kind of like questioning the wind. Its there so we enjoy it. If you take to much time or work finding out why then its just not fun any more.

Doug&Ruth
Triska (Alberg 29)
Tacoma Wa.

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 18:00:59

The Europeans drink their beer at 42* and their lager at 52*. These are the correct temps to get the full flavor. American beer has to be ice cold because of the excess carbonation - that's why it appears to have very little flavor. (And if this doesn't open a can of worms I'll be mighty surprised!)<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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MattL
Admiral

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USA
990 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 18:39:46

Derek,
A friend of mine once told me that the English drink warm beer because they have Lucas Refrigeraters. He drove a Triumph.

The big difference between an English or German beer has more to do with ingredients I think. American beers use a rice adjunct to get more alchol and less flavor. The european beers have stricter controls on what goes in to keep their german or english logo. That is an english beer is made with water, barley, hops, and yeast in that order. American would be water rice (NO FLAVOR), barley, hops, yeast. Now a Beer like Guiness is made the same way except the barley, which normally goes through a toasting step, is cooked even more to get the darker color.
In regards to the carbination european beers generally have less alchol but the carbination I always thought was about the saame. It comes from sugar added for a secondary fermentation to give the bubbles. I could tell you a story of a little problem I had in this step, long ago, but you probably have heard enough from me by now.
<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>

Matt/Brigitte Loeffler
E.C. Rider
Cat 25 86'
FK/SR _/)

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 18:39:49

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
The Europeans drink their beer at 42* and their lager at 52*. These are the correct temps to get the full flavor. American beer has to be ice cold because of the excess carbonation - that's why it appears to have very little flavor...<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
The American beers you're referring to "appear" to have very little flavor because they have very little flavor, not because they're too cold. I'm talking about Bud, Miller, and (ugh) Coors... Then there's the quintessential redundancy in beers: Coors Light--the typical municipal tap water has more flavor than that. <img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

However, an American beer like Sam Adams or Harpoon IPA will have flavor at just about any temp. (I know, IPA isn't beer, strictly speaking, but many IPAs are made in the USA and I enjoy them in place of beer.) I just wish there were a really good one in cans to take on the boat... Amstel and Heineken will have to do.

OK guys... Lets have it out! <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 19:11:41

As my Canadien relatives always say, "How can you drink that American pisswater you call beer?", and truthfully, I agree!

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 20:29:16

I lived in Canada for 18 years - and "Canadian beer" is an oxymoron.
(Except for Calgary Stock Ale, which at 9% alcohol is a REAL beer!)The reason that the big brewers in USA use rice and corn is that they can turn out a batch of beer in 3 days! (Another victory for the marketing people...) Even small islands like Jamaica and Grenada make much better beer. Good beer takes 3 weeks to mature properly. As Matt says - the only ingredients that should be in beer are those four, and in Germany, to add anything else is a felony.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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bren737
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291 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 20:55:18

Derek,

Amen, Brother!!! Though, admittedly, I'll down a cold Lone Star on a hot summer day mowing the yard, American beer is flavorless. I think serving it cold helps numb the mouth so that you don't realize how bad the beer actually is! Granted, there are many fine American exceptions, such as Sierra Nevada pale ale, Alaskan Amber, Full Sail and Snake Dog from the Denver area, but these are all basically "micro" brews when compared to the mega-brewing companies. I get a lot of strange looks when at a pub and I ask for my pint to be poured in a room-temperature glass. They look at you like you're nuts!

The brewing process, as with most things here, are victim of the American idea that bigger and quicker is always better. We live in a country run amuck with cell phones, email and instant-messaging. Sad to say. A good friend of mine from England muses about how we puff with pride when talking about the many 'traditions' we have in our nation of roughly 250 years. He talks of a stone path just outside of his grandmother's house which is nearly 600 years old. It leads through a thicket, across a creek to a little stone pub built into the side of a berm that is just as old as the path. Now that's tradition!<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle> He beams when talking about how many generations of his Wootton-Woolley ancestors have stumbled home along that path!

Now that the spring is coming anew and I hope to be getting to the lake a little more often, we'll have to share a pint or two with Steve. . . appropriately served at something less than "ice-cold."

Bren Peterson
C250WB, #642, "Ruah"
San Antonio, TX

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ClamBeach
Master Marine Consultant

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3072 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 21:07:53

Heck, I thought you were talking about the Beerfort Scale, on line at www.usual-suspects-sailing.com/exp-beerfort-scale.htm
(picked this up from latitude38.com)

Force 0: Sails hanging limp. Tiller tends itself.

Force 1: Beginning pressure on sails. If sheet is eased out, the tiller still tends itself.

Force 2: Sails flapping in the breeze, and boat drifting to leeward. Sheets must be tightened and one hand put on the tiller. As the wind fills the sails, the boat heels. Case of beer must be placed on cockpit floor.

Force 3: The beer may be knocked over and must be supported or held in hand.

Force 4: Empty bottles rolling against each other on cockpit floor. Must be thrown over side.

Force 5: All beer streaming behind boat must be hauled in.

Force 6: Nobody can hold onto more than one beer at a time.

Force 7: The case of beer slides back and forth on cockpit floor. One person must be appointed to sit on it.

Force 8: Bottles can still be opened by one person. Beginning of difficulties pouring into the mouth without spilling.

Force 9: Bottle must be held with two hands. Only experts can get the cap off by themselves.

Force 10: Two people required to open bottles. Empties must be thrown to leeward only. Very difficult to find mouth. Some teeth may be knocked loose.
F
orce 11: The beer tends to foam out of bottle. Very difficult to drink. Lips split and teeth fall out.

Force 12: All open bottles foam. Impossible to drink. Temporary abstinence may be required.

Currently maintaining two holes in the water...'77 Venture 23 and new to the family,
'78 Catalina 25

Edited by - on

dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/13/2003 : 21:54:09

I spent a couple of weeks in Hamburg, Germany last year...er,.make that 2 years ago and I did aquire an affinity for Duckstein.

<img src="http://www.duckstein.de/img/glasflasche.jpg" border=0>

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 00:32:51

Thanks guys for agreeing with me! I always get kidded at the Club for drinking "warm" beer!
BTW Bren - when I lived in England I used to drink at "The Trip to Jerusalem" - they have records dating back to 1089 when the crusaders stayed there on the way to the Holy Land. The pub is built into the cliff on which Nottingham castle stands - 'tis rumored there is a secret passage up to the castle which Robin Hood used to keep his rendezvous with maid Marian...<img src=icon_smile_wink.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 09:31:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
(Except for Calgary Stock Ale, which at 9% alcohol is a REAL beer!)
Derek<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

If were playing the percentage game, don't rule out Molson XXX (not available in most states, but it is up in Canada.)

All this talk of beer has me thinking, Although I am not going to Nationals this year, you guys who are might try and organize this. Each person bring a case of the favorite LOCAL beer. (If there is more than one person from an area, collaborate beforehand.) Have a local beer party in indiana

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - Duane Wolff on 02/14/2003 09:34:43

Edited by - on

Buzz Maring
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
1775 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 09:35:36

Did someone say "BEER" ... ?

Like almost everything, "different strokes for different folks" applies here. There aren't too many beers that I don't like, but I'd rather not have a warm beer that I've got to practically chew to get down.

I lived in Germany for two years, and while in Europe I got to try many different kinds of beers ... most of them are excellent, but I still prefer my American-made light-colored stuff with all the bubbles, served as COLD as you can get it!

In Germany you can set up beer delivery just like we used to do in this country with milk & dairy products ... they'll deliver a case right to your doorstep as often as you like.

If you ask a German what kind of beer is the BEST beer, you'll almost always get the same answer:

FREE BEER!

<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

Buzz Maring, C-25 SK/SR #68, "Freya"
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3df23b3127cce9306a9b3abad0000001010" border=0>

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ssteakley
Captain

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USA
467 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 11:21:15

Hey Derek,
If you haven't noticed it is hot as *!@#!* in Texas...That is why we drink Ice cold beer, If I was in England freezing my butt off I would appreciate a warm beer for sure, I drink my premium imports ice cold!
Steve

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc32b3127cce94d57c8cff3b0000001010" border=0> Moon Chaser #385WK

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 11:37:56

Steve - at 42* beer isn't warm!! Remember - we try not to race when it's that cold! There are a lot of studies that suggest drinking a "warmer" beverage cools you off more than an ice cold one...but, "different strokes for different folks" - it's what makes this old world so interesting!<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Derek
P.S.The reason they don't ice mixed drinks in England is that they lost the recipe for ice around 1640...

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 13:31:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>

P.S.The reason they don't ice mixed drinks in England is that they lost the recipe for ice around 1640...

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Hey Derek, based on some of the English cooking I've tasted, I think they lost a lot more recipes than just the one for ice.

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

John Mason
Admiral

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USA
687 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 13:33:37

Gots to disagree with those who think american beer is bad. We have many great beers and just because they're 'micros' doesn't mean they aren't american.

Stop drinking the 'macro', slightly more flavor than water beers and support the good stuff. Or is the Pacific Northwest the only area that has an abundance of good micros?

John Mason - Ali Paroosa
1982 - FK/SR #3290

Edited by - on

Todd Frye
Navigator

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USA
222 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 14:10:02

Although this has been posted before as a modification for our built in coolers...thought it would be worth the reading on this thread...since we all seem to be getting cabin fever.

http://www.asciimation.co.nz/beer/

Todd Frye

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 15:07:35

Duane,I'm FOFLMDFHO - you've not been dining in the right places!
<img src=icon_smile_sad.gif border=0 align=middle> You should try some of my recipes...
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 15:10:11

John - I agree about the micro-breweries. Now if only the marketing people would let the "big boys" go back to making real beer...maybe if John Q.Public stopped drinking their crap they would get the message. But I doubt it.
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

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Champipple
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
6855 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 15:38:37

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
John - I agree about the micro-breweries. Now if only the marketing people would let the "big boys" go back to making real beer...maybe if John Q.Public stopped drinking their crap they would get the message. But I doubt it.
Derek

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
I'll give ya the shepherds pie, but after that .....<img src=icon_smile_dead.gif border=0 align=middle>

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

Edited by - on

jm
Captain

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Canada
290 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 15:46:36

oh yeah, like Bangers and Mash, or Mushy Peas. Culinary delights !

Edited by - on

NuNees
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USA
125 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 16:37:20

[quote]
Derek,
A friend of mine once told me that the English drink warm beer because they have Lucas Refrigeraters. He drove a Triumph.

Matt,
As I was reading the comments about warm beer I could not help but remember that old joke about Lucas Electrics...Back in the 60's i had an AH3000...(the starter only went out when it was cold and icey)...I thought Iwas the only one who would know that line.
Laast time I told it I really ticked off a 'Lime Squeezer'...
Gotta keep up the sense of humor.

Bill J C25 SR/SK #4953

Edited by - on

Derek Crawford
Master Marine Consultant

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USA
3324 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 17:56:20

Bill J - I remember the Austin Healey 3000...man, it had the most WONDERFUL exhaust note. It just burbled <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle><img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>. Those were the days...
Derek

<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b3dc30b3127cce942c608d6f1e0000001010" border=0>

Edited by - on

Dave Bristle
Master Marine Consultant

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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/14/2003 : 20:24:35

Yup--Lucas Electonics, by the Prince of Darkness! <img src=icon_smile_evil.gif border=0 align=middle>

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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