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MAIN SAIL LOOSE FOOT vs BOLTED

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gerdo
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107 Posts

Initially Posted - 02/24/2003 : 13:22:45

Am considering replacing main and do not know which way to go on the foot, loose or bolted. Any ideas?

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 13:44:25

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Am considering replacing main and do not know which way to go on the foot, loose or bolted. Any ideas?

<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

I like the loose footed main for a number of reasons. I seem to be able to better shape the main, I have a nice handhold, the length of the boom when I go forward, and the price was better in my particular instance. Its also a tiny bit easier to bend on and off.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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visio
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Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 20:18:03

How well does single line reefing work with a loose fitted main? Does the foot flap around unsecured or get caught up in the reefing lines?

Dave Laws
C-25 TR/SK #2580 "Visio"
Stillwater, OK

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dlucier
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Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 21:11:08

This came from Sailnet and is titled, "Loose-Footed Mainsails".

Can you give me any guidance regarding the difference in sailing with a loose footed main and one with slides or a bolt rope? I sail a Sonata 26 and I've ordered a new main that the sailmaker is constructing as a loose-footed sail. Someone told me that it will be essential to strengthen the outhaul, and even use a dinghy mainsheet car on the boom because of the concentrated force at the outer end of the boom. What's the straight story?

SailNet responds:
"Thanks for your question. Don't fret too much about making the transition from a bolt-rope or slugged-footed mainsail to a loose-footed one because all the kinks have pretty much been worked out and loose-footed mainsails are quite versatile these days.

Essentially, very little support is given to a mainsail by the bolt rope, so you're not losing anything by moving to a loose-footed sail. The loose-footed option gives you a lot more adjustability in sail shaping. And there's really no difference in the sail handling characteristics from one system to another. Also, you don't need a stronger outhaul, even though you'll often see sailmakers put a sliding car on the end of the boom with loose footed mainsails, that's just so that the loaded portion of the sail travels fore and aft more easily. Actually, what's become even more common is the use of strong webbing to strap the clew to the boom. The webbing keeps the clew low enough, but still allows it to slide forward and aft when the outhaul is used.

We personally feel that loose-footed sails are easier to trim because of the improved adjustability. The only real difference to get accustomed to is the foot line (most bolt-rope or slug-footed mainsails don't have a foot line). You can use this adjustment just as you would a foot line on a genoa or jib."

Here's the link.

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=sailne0594

This is an excerpt of a Sailnet article, "Mainsail Details" that was written by AirForce Sails Product Manager Brian Hancock.

Mainsail Details

Now comes the question of opting for a loose foot or a slide or bolt-rope-attachment. Many older designs still offer a track along the boom, calling for slides to be built into the foot of the mainsail. Unless you are hoping to collect rainwater to fill your tanks while sailing offshore, this old way of doing things should be discarded in favor of a loose-footed mainsail. The loose-footed arrangment is cleaner, simpler, friction free, and it allows for more adjustment to the sail shape. You simply have the sail attached at the tack in a conventional manner, and attach the clew to the outhaul car. The foot round in the sail should drape below the boom, which adds area. For reef lines, you can use your old system, or simply tie the line around the boom at the appropriate location. It's a small change from the old way of doing things, but I am sure that you will find it a big help.

Here's the link.

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=hancoc006

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 22:02:38

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
For reef lines, you can use your old system, or simply tie the line around the boom at the appropriate location.
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
It seems to me the tack and clew reef lines can be the same--the outhaul will keep the true foot flapping and the clew line will flatten the reefed foot like an outhaul would. For those who like to tie down their reefed sails, the loose foot allows you to NOT tie around the boom--greatly reducing the likelihood of overstressing the much weaker tie-down grommets.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

Edited by - dave bristle on 02/24/2003 22:04:57

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visio
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 02/24/2003 : 23:33:05

All right, I'm sold. The loose footed main sounds like the way to go.

Now about this mysterious foot line. I gather it is a rope running through the foot of the sail. How would one adjust it? Maybe Don can find a picture for us. <img src=icon_smile_tongue.gif border=0 align=middle>

Thanks,

Dave Laws
C-25 TR/SK #2580 "Visio"
Stillwater, OK

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dlucier
Master Marine Consultant

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Virgin Islands (United Kingdom)
7583 Posts

Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 00:14:20

"Now about this mysterious foot line. I gather it is a rope running through the foot of the sail. How would one adjust it?"

Yes, you are correct. The foot line runs through the foot of the sail, just like a leech line, and controls the shape of the foot. It will generally have a jam cleat sewn into the sail to hold the line. (Sorry, couldn't find a picture)

Don Lucier, 'North Star'
C25 SR/FK
<img src="http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b2cc32b3127cce92e981259d130000001010" border=0>
Cradled on the hard, 200ft from Lake Erie

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RichardG
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Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 00:19:57

With miscellaneous parts found in the bottom of a drawer, I made an outhaul similar to this one...http://c25c250.best.vwh.net/restricted/classc2.html. Makes for easy controlling of the shape of the foot of the loose-footed main.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Leon Sisson
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Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 01:01:02

gerdo,<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>... which way to go on the foot, loose or bolted. Any ideas?<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>I've tried both bolt rope and loose footed on my 1979 standard rig Catalina 25. I've also used foot slugs on two previous boats. I prefer having the mainsail loose footed vs foot bolt rope in the boom groove. Using foot slugs is a good compromise between the two.

Some booms use only the sail's foot bolt rope to attach the clew to the boom. In that case, some sort of outhaul slide or car needs to be added when switching to loose footed. I use a welded stainless steel outhaul car with captive quick release clew pin and 2:1 wire outhaul block. It was kind of expensive as I recall. There are 2" long nylon slugs available with stainless steel bails that might work for less money. Remember that all of the mainsheet tackle's tension, as well as the boom vang's force, has to transfer to the loose footed mainsail at the clew, so whatever attaches the clew to the boom needs to be substantial.

And speaking of adjustable outhauls, I build one with an 8:1 internal cascade, and a head knocker style camcleat similar to Gary Norgan's mainsheet cleat on Classical Cat. I mounted the pivoting outhaul camcleat about 4 feet aft of the gooseneck. This location puts the dangling tail of the outhaul control line as close to the cockpit as possible when sheeted in and beating, without having it hang outside the life lines when sheeted out on a run.

-- Leon Sisson

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gerdo
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Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 13:57:33

Thanks to all. I do have a "bullet proof" outhaul in the boom, the one from Catalina Direct. Am a little confused though on what holds the foot to the boom. Is it only the outhaul at the clew? Is there something at the clew that slides in the boom groove.

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RichardG
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Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 16:42:36

gerdo:

Some mainsails already have a single sail slide attached to the clew which holds the clew to the boom. If not already there, a slide can be added. The original slide which came with my mainsail was part plastic. When converting my mainsail to loose-footed, I had this slide replaced by a bigger, all-metal slide.

However, I've heard others choose to go "slideless" at the clew; instead wrapping heavy webbing through the clew ring and around the boom as a means to keeping the clew close to the boom.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Carl B.
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Response Posted - 02/25/2003 : 22:44:55

Can one take a boltrope and use it as a loose foot?
Or does one have to modify it? If so how?

"OBLIVIOUS" C25 '82 #3098 SR/FK/Trad

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RichardG
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Response Posted - 02/26/2003 : 01:01:19

My mainsail was designed for the boltrope to go in the groove of the boom the whole length of the foot of the sail. I just simply took the boltrope out of the groove, leaving only the sail slide at the clew in the groove. While probably not as good as a mainsail with a specifically designed shelf in it, it seems as though it works better than having the boltrope in the the groove.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 07:57:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
Can one take a boltrope and use it as a loose foot?
Or does one have to modify it? If so how?

"OBLIVIOUS" C25 '82 #3098 SR/FK/Trad
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Carl -

While it can be done, it won't be a good solution. The cut of a free footed main is such that only the clew sits in the sail track and the rest of the sail does not. With the bolt rope, the entire foot is in line so when you attach the clew to the outhaul the rest of the foot will want to go into the kerf on the boom. It is rather difficult to describe. But essentially, if the sail isn't cut for it, there is no real benefit to trying to free foot the sail.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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RichardG
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Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 15:46:44

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>With the bolt rope, the entire foot is in line so when you attach the clew to the outhaul the rest of the foot will want to go into the kerf on the boom.<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

With mine, this only occurs when the outhaul is cranked during heavy wind. When the outhaul is otherwise adjusted (most of the time), the wind creates a curve in the foot (and the boltrope), just as the wind curves the rest of the sail.

While I have no specific proof that my boltroped main, sailed loose-footed, provides more power than if I sailed it with the boltrope in the groove, like I said, it feels faster<img src=icon_smile.gif border=0 align=middle>. This makes sense to me because, with the boltrope in the groove, the foot of the sail is essentially linear and therefore unable to create lift. With it loose-footed, the foot is able to have significant curve, thus capable of creating lift.

Regardless, with the boltrope in the groove, the outhaul was capable of making only very small adjustments (which is why I rarely adjusted it). Now, the outhaul is able to make signicant adjustments and so now I often adjust the outhaul for given wind conditions.

But then again, maybe it's just all in my head.

RichardG 81 C25 SR/FK "Sanity"

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Todd Frye
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Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 18:33:28

With the loose footed main, the boom vang would not have alot of influence on flattening the sail in strong winds (I'm guessing). Does this mean that a loose footed main would perform better in light to moderate winds and actually perform worse in strong wind? Thanks. Todd Frye

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eric.werkowitz
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Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:31:02

Todd,

The vang is used primarily when sailing on a run or broad reach. The main sheet cannot flatten the main when the boom is swung to either side. The vang, however, can still pull down on the boom and keep it from bouncing and maintain a full surface to the wind. On other points of sail the main sheet will effectively flatten the sail especially if combined with an outhaul. I don't think loose or bolted will have much effect other than to allow the main to be more like a "chute" in low and down-wind conditions. Overall, I think the loose footed main provides more sail shaping control.

Eric Werkowitz
C25 #4969

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Dave Bristle
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Djibouti
10005 Posts

Response Posted - 02/27/2003 : 22:32:32

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
With the loose footed main, the boom vang would not have alot of influence on flattening the sail in strong winds (I'm guessing). Does this mean that a loose footed main would perform better in light to moderate winds and actually perform worse in strong wind? Thanks. Todd Frye
<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>
Todd: Loose footed, the outhaul flattens the main horizontally (along the foot), and the vang helps to flatten it vertically (along the leech). The combination is similar to what you get as you move your genoa car fore and aft--applying more tension to the foot when aft, and to the leech when forward.

Dave Bristle - 1985 C-25 #5032 SR-FK-Dinette-Honda "Passage" in SW CT

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Champipple
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Response Posted - 02/28/2003 : 13:48:48

<BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>quote:<hr height=1 noshade id=quote>
With the loose footed main, the boom vang would not have alot of influence on flattening the sail in strong winds (I'm guessing). Does this mean that a loose footed main would perform better in light to moderate winds and actually perform worse in strong wind? Thanks. Todd Frye<hr height=1 noshade id=quote></BLOCKQUOTE id=quote>

Todd -

Loose footed had no bearing on the ability of the vang to do its job. Keep in mind, the sail is still connected at the tack and clew.

dw

D. Wolff - "The Flying Wasp" #401 sr/sk
Chief Measurer C-25/250 National Assn.
<img src="http://www.flags.com/dreamimages/Flags/measurer.jpg" border=0>

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visio
Deckhand

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Response Posted - 03/03/2003 : 19:20:36

Is a loose-footed main compatible with the Dutchman flaking system? I've never seen a Dutchman setup before and the pictures I've found on the web aren't very clear, but the idea sound very cool.

I'm guessing that the control lines for the Dutchman are eased by tightening the topping lift. Is this correct and, if so, would that provide enough slack so that a loose-footed main would not be affected by the control lines?

Sorry to wander a little off topic, but how easy is it to disconnect the Dutchman system for trailering?

Thanks,

Dave Laws
C-25 TR/SK #2580 "Visio"
Stillwater, OK

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